But I was told the free market brought me the best product at the cheapest price!!

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Interesting post.

Thanks Most of my posts are either lengthy or bad jokes or both, so it's nice to be interesting.

However I would have to say privatization is a way to destroy an economy as Regan's policies destroyed the US economy, by killing the manufacturing basis, and when the IMF told Argentina to privatize their assets, it destroyed that economy as well, completely.

Ah, I see the problem here. You're operating under the classic assumption that manufacturing is in and of itself a good thing. That's an attitude typical of supporters of socialist agendas. I don't mean to be condescending by saying that, I just lack the vernacular to make the point clear and succinct in a polite fashion. The best I can do as a former leftist myself is to explain why I have drawn the conclusions I have and let you make your own judgements. Someone did that for me, once.

First, I'd like you to ask yourself why it is that you believe that manufacturing is a critical component of the workers' well-being. Is it because manufacturing is important to self-sufficiency? Is it because controlling the means of production will empower the workers? Is it because the capitalists are standing on the backs of the less-fortunate and greedily gobbiling up a disproportionate share of the world's wealth? Or do you just think capitalism is inefficient? Personally, I subscribed to the school of thought that focused upon income disparity; in fact, the wealth gap still bothers me, but what are your reasons? Odds are they include at least one of the above and that they are reasonable opinions.

Unfortunately, the world doesn't quite work that way. Let's begin with your Reagan example. I'm not a fan of the guy, myself, but for different reasons. You claim that he destroyed the US manufacturing base. Let's just assume that's true so we don't get bogged down. What happened after that? The US economy grew more powerful. In fact, just a few years later, under a Republican congress, the US economy experienced unprecedented growth, mostly in sectors that were deregulated or minimally-regulated to begin with. Median income went up. The standard of living went up. There were more goods and they were more readily available than they had been in the years preceding Reagan. Clearly, the manufacturing sector is not integral to prosperity.

Now, let's put a hypothetical President X in Reagan's place. We'll give him fiat power over industry and assume that he has the plight of the workers at heart. He focuses upon manufacturing jobs and ensures the workers are well-paid and cared-for. He also makes sure that CEOs don't make too much. Disregarding the complete lack of motivation that being unconditionally provided-for often engenders, we now we have legions of prosperous, united, empowered workers and citizens toiling away and showing the capitalists how it's done. There's just one small problem: Who is going to buy their goods, read "pay for all that"? I'm curious to know how you'd fix that problem.

US manufacturing, in the sense that you mean it, died because the standard of living in the US began to exceed the income that producing and selling a finished product could provide. It didn't disappear, it just changed into something else, as befit the needs of the market.

The manufacturing that you refer to remains, at great public expense, because people like you do not see that they're being had by the workers themselves, and their bosses. Socialism necessitates government, and government necessitates power. Who do you think is going to get that power? The people? How much time and effort are you prepared to invest in ensuring that widget-makers are being treated fairly? The widget-makers have all the time and effort in the world to invest in making their case, especially when they have a right to the fruits of your labor, and vice-versa. Lawmakers generally have very little experience in the widget market or yours, and you'd trust them to make decisions for you? Are we putting 2 and 2 together yet?

Like it or not, the world is not a fair place. I'm sure you have some great idea for social equality, but the fact of the matter is that you are not smarter than everyone else, and everyone else is not as fair-minded as you. They will figure out a way to co-opt any kind of socialist system, no matter what you do. The best you can hope for is free-market exchange, where the choice rests with the consumer, as do the benefits.

Riots were in the streets everywhere, though there was a positive side effect. Workers occupied the factories and to this day continue to do so.

And Argentina is still a crappy place to live to this day. Glad it's working out for them. The IMF is little better than a government when it comes to policymaking.

Along with special interests and imperialist propagandists; I don't think you will have any luck against those interests unless there is revolution. And USA literally has a lot of work to do.

I agree with everything except for the "imperialists" part. That's socialist for "winning" and ignores the issue. I can see how some would view the US as imperialists because we don't play fair when it comes to free trade, impeding or promoting the trade of other nations as our special interests or people see fit, but complaining about it or mislabeling it doesn't help illustrate the problem.

You need to wipe out your congress, and start over. I recommend having public control over decisions, and regulations.

Are you insane? We can't even achieve anything remotely resembling a consensus on this forum, let alone in a nation of 300-something million people, and none of us have our livleyhoods tied up in this venue.

Furthermore, how can you complain about special interests and then promote public rule and regulation? How do you think we got special interests in the first place? Remember, this country is supposedly governed by ironclad constitutional law. The only limiting factor on people with a common interest getting together is the constitution, and look what's happened to it so far!

The economic mistake USA made is letting its MNC's run like wild animals raping the world's resources, getting bigger and bigger, until the government politicians want to get the regulation back and introduce all these bureaucratic measures. This turns into corporatism or fascism, as your government only serves corporate interests.

Again, you know this, but you somehow still advocate popular rule. Who do you think corporations are comprised of? I said before that you'd been had, this is a perfect example of just how badly. You're not standing up for workers rights, you're just supporting another special interest. Worse, you're actually making it easier for special interests by removing the whole "constitutional law" thing.

There needs to be a mass popular uprising of Americans to take control of these largest institutions because they are the one's destroying your country. Thats my take, but I think its to late, as the military industry, banks, IMF etc have all the control, and your country will go bankrupt with 15 trillion in debt owing to China.

Oh? And who did that? Was it private industry, operating at a profit by exchanging goods or services for capital? Or was it the people's government?

Corporate America will profit from it, because they'll just buy Every asset out there, probably wiping out small businesses, and the middle class will suffer. Of course that also brings the chance for Revolution

Forgive me, but I'm not going into this at the moment. I think I've said everything you need to hear. Again, I apologize if any of it comes across as brusque, it's just my way of speaking. If we were to discuss it face-to-face, I'm sure you wouldn't find my tone disagreeable.

[redsocialist]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Thanks Most of my posts are either lengthy or bad jokes or both, so it's nice to be interesting.

Too lengthy for me and though I'm not quite the intellectual as you, the world does not buy the corporate imperialist propaganda and what this establishment plans to force upon them.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Too lengthy for me and though I'm not quite the intellectual as you, the world does not buy the corporate imperialist propaganda and what this establishment plans to force upon them.

You post videos with a length of several minutes, uncommented links to tons of texts and then back off when someone takes the time to answer to you personally and adress your statements?
What a pussy!
It takes 6-10 minutes to read and comprehend UnderseaLcpl's text. It certainly took him more time to type it. And your only answer is an unreflected parole? You claim to think on your own while the other world can't?
You are really a joke, not worth any discussion!


@UnderseaLcpl:
I would really like to pick up the gauntlet and answer to your post, especially since you wrote pleasantly unpolemic - and since you come from the left and went to the dark side .
Unfortunately I do not have the time at the moment to answer to it properly (= more than paroles); lefties gotta earn their money, too...
I will answer to you at the latest on Sunday, but be aware that I will be out on a drinking tour on Saturday - after listening to a concert of an anarchist folk & polka singer - I like weird music. However I can certainly think on my own. But you can expect me to be a little polemic due to unsoberness reasons...

[redsocialist]

Originally Posted by Penguin

You post videos with a length of several minutes, uncommented links to tons of texts and then back off when someone takes the time to answer to you personally and adress your statements?
What a pussy!
It takes 6-10 minutes to read and comprehend UnderseaLcpl's text. It certainly took him more time to type it. And your only answer is an unreflected parole? You claim to think on your own while the other world can't?
You are really a joke, not worth any discussion!


@UnderseaLcpl:
I would really like to pick up the gauntlet and answer to your post, especially since you wrote pleasantly unpolemic - and since you come from the left and went to the dark side .
Unfortunately I do not have the time at the moment to answer to it properly (= more than paroles); lefties gotta earn their money, too...
I will answer to you at the latest on Sunday, but be aware that I will be out on a drinking tour on Saturday - after listening to a concert of an anarchist folk & polka singer - I like weird music. However I can certainly think on my own. But you can expect me to be a little polemic due to unsoberness reasons...

Haha, I'm a pussy because I didn't try to debate a petti-bourgeois intellectual? If I really cared so much, I would call up Noami Klein. Hey guess what Penguin?? Its not going to change a damn thing, and like I said the world will not put up with the BS these corporate imperialists try to force upon them. You really are clueless aren't you Btw Penguin attacking me and calling me a pussy sounds like a 15 year old child, maybe act a little more than your age? As for Undersea, once he said "government" better than IMF, I decided it would be a waste of time to rebuttle such an arrogant and outrageous claim.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Haha, I'm a pussy because I didn't try to debate a petti-bourgeois intellectual?

While I don't agree with his use of the term, I would concede that it is the root of the problem that you are having on this forum. Anytime that anyone tries to engage you in a serious manner, or ask any questions of you, your response is to call names, post an image and then run off. By doing so, you make it hard for people to take you or your views seriously.

[redsocialist]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

While I don't agree with his use of the term, I would concede that it is the root of the problem that you are having on this forum. Anytime that anyone tries to engage you in a serious manner, or ask any questions of you, your response is to call names, post an image and then run off. By doing so, you make it hard for people to take you or your views seriously.

Okay fair enough. how about this. I will seriously debate a libertarian on here respectfully. I really do not want to come across as an a-hole, and remember I do not hate the American people. Though i think a lump some of them are brainwashed beyond belief, I do not have a hatred, even to August. Also, regearding that post I'm not debating someone who "prefers IMF to control a country" vs having a government. We can just say "he won" whoo hooo for him

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Okay fair enough. how about this. I will seriously debate a libertarian on here respectfully. I really do not want to come across as an a-hole, and remember I do not hate the American people. Though i think a lump some of them are brainwashed beyond belief, I do not have a hatred, even to August. Also, regearding that post I'm not debating someone who "prefers IMF to control a country" vs having a government. We can just say "he won" whoo hooo for him

You start off well enough, but then you go on to take jabs as people and end by saying that you're taking your ball and going home. Come on man, be reasonable; no one's going to feel sorry for you here. If you don't want to defend your views, then don't post them in the first place. It's an internet forum; that's what it is for.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Okay fair enough. how about this. I will seriously debate a libertarian on here respectfully.

UnderseaLCPL gave you that opportunity, as that's exactly what he is. Go back and address his argument, point by point, and maybe you'll start to earn some credibility.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

I decided it would be a waste of time to rebuttle such an arrogant and outrageous claim.

But the thing is you don't seem to rebut *any* claim. You've got your beliefs, and you don't seem to want to have an honest discussion about them. You just post some "I'm right and you're stupid" (thank you, Sailor Steve) response and that's it.

That's not very constructive or entertaining.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Haha, I'm a pussy because I didn't try to debate a petti-bourgeois intellectual?

Yes, exactly


Btw, you do not need to be an intellectual to debate a topic. This is exactly the thing I see in communist leaflets/papers. They write in a style that the ordinary public, with no studies in sociology and politics, have no clue what they talk about.

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Hey guess what Penguin?? Its not going to change a damn thing,

At least here, you show signs of realism.
Guess what? All we debate here won't change a thing, but maybe - if you have not subscribed closed-minded thinking - somebody thinks about the arguments of the other side. If you stick to a little box of paroles, it won't get you far. I would never claim to know everything and close my mind to other opinions. There are some conservative voices here which I can really respect. Why? Because I am man enough to have my own opinions, man enough to admit when I am wrong and man enough to open my ears to others.

Originally Posted by redsocialist

and like I said the world will not put up with the BS these corporate imperialists try to force upon them.

i don't see how undersea tried to force his opinion on you, but maybe I didn't see him with his imperialist CIA-backed cowboys knocking on your front door..

Originally Posted by redsocialist

You really are clueless aren't you Btw Penguin attacking me and calling me a pussy sounds like a 15 year old child, maybe act a little more than your age?

How do you know I am not 15? Right, because I stated my age here on various occasions...
I come from the real world, kid. I am a member of the working-class, no blue collar worker, I wear a checkered one today. Remember: one of the guys for whom you claim to speak for. When I talk to collegues, pussy is one of the nicer words - and that's when we talk friendly to each other...
And I call someone pussy when he behaves like one, in the net and in the world outside of the computer.

<- to your left is a button to report a post, silencing unwanted opinions is something people like you seem to like, eh?