Indonesia: Angry Muslim crowd attacks Java churches

[Skybird]

Rockstar,

demography certainly is a weapon, and like it was said that chemical weapons are the poor state's atomic bomb, demography is Islam's atomic bomb. But then again: demography has it's own inner dynamics, with consequences that were caused by it feeding back on it. The age and gender structure of current Muslim states will continue to support the energetic expansion of Islamic societies for another 2 generations, 50-60 years from now on - then said nations will be where Europe and the West are today: overaged societies with all the problematic implications we now feel in the West from that.

Some of the more ambitious Islamic leaders know that and thus push very hard to make hay while the sun is shining - for the next 5-6 decades. After that their societies again will lack the vitality to expand by aggressive movement, and they will meet the age-paralysis in a far more unprepared manner than the West meets the same problem today. Until then, we must hold out and hold our ground, somehow. Which may prove difficult, since we ourselves are currently in the declining phase of our cultural cycle, and facing even greater additional challenges than ever before: the rise of Asia and its economic potence, the shortage of ressources, the inner weakness of our culture due to the decadence eroding our will to defend the values our societies historically have emerged from.

In the thread on Egypt I just have referred to Gunnar Heihnsohn. If you happen to understand German, get one of the books I mentioned there. My argumentation regarding the power of demography mostly is due to Heihnsohn's arguments and statistical data. He is brilliant, and often underestimated.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

So is this the same 1000 strong mob that burned down the mosque and killed the muslims?

that may have been a separate incident, against Ahmadiya people. You know Ahmadiya, the sect that has been banned in Pakistan from referring to themselves as Muslim, and in Indonesia are referred to as a heretical, or is it deviant, sect?

So perhaps i should have acknowledged that we need more of these angry mainstream muslim mobs

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Skybird last I looked if things keep going like they are half of all human births on this planet will be to Muslim families by 2055. And they know it. Not to mention a surge in conversions to Islam since 9-11. Yep, I'd wager by the end of the century you're either going to submit or face the caliphs blade


"Islam our religion today, your religion tomorrow"
slogan used by muslims protesting in Europe 1989

i was reading somewhere that most of the demographic increase in muslim societies was due not to more births, but longer lives. in other words, it is not so much the birth rate increasing as the death rate decreasing at the other end. (not so much the effect of declining infant mortality) - so there is reason to believe the muslim population increase will start to slow soon as the population ages.

Conversion, i understand is insignificant as a source of new recruits. European increase is through immigration, global muslim increase is through aging.

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Until then, we must hold out and hold our ground, somehow.

Starting to sound mightyly like a religious war between Islamics and non-Islamics based on that sentence. Half the Muslim and Islamic people I know denounce this so called jihad against the West. Its only these bloody crackpots in power, and their thugs, as well as crackpots on 'this side' that hype up this clash in ideals.

Not meaning to draw parallels are imply anything. But "Holding our ground against the Muslims sounds awefully like an angry, anti-semitic artist who dragged Europe into flames in the 30s and 40s.

Again I don't want to imply anything and using said name is in my opinion cliche'd when talking about this kind of thing.. but again that was my most vivid image when reading that sentence.

[Gerald]

I would like a comment from Castout,

[joea]

@ Skybird, you wrote that the West is facing a challenge from Asia as well as that of Islam-do you think Asia is as threatened by the rise of Islam as you think the West is? I cannot see China or Japan becoming "Islamicised" in any way - and China in particular is NOT restrained by any notions of PC!

Skybird last I looked if things keep going like they are half of all human births on this planet will be to Muslim families by 2055

If things keep going like they are going then according to statistics everyone will be a Jedi.

that may have been a separate incident

Yes a different incident in the same place in Indonesia, though if you look at the OP they were attacked again and killed in this incident.

You know Ahmadiya

Like the ones with the really big mosque in Switzerland?
You know the evil muslims that are going to take over the world?

Its only these bloody crackpots in power, and their thugs, as well as crackpots on 'this side' that hype up this clash in ideals.

Spot on

Not meaning to draw parallels are imply anything. But "Holding our ground against the Muslims sounds awefully like an angry, anti-semitic artist who dragged Europe into flames in the 30s and 40s.

You will find again and again that skys lines can be found word for word in "My struggle" but with Jews replaced by Muslims.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Krauter

Starting to sound mightyly like a religious war between Islamics and non-Islamics based on that sentence. Half the Muslim and Islamic people I know denounce this so called jihad against the West. Its only these bloody crackpots in power, and their thugs, as well as crackpots on 'this side' that hype up this clash in ideals.

It is the ideology, it is in its genes. Islam is an aggressive, totalitarian and supremacist ideology, with racism included for free. Sorry, but that'S what it is. So if half of your Muslim friends are against that, they are in a way already apostates, and play with their lives, from an Islamic point of view. And that may be the reason why Islamic terrorism often target Islamic people, too (no new phenomeneon, btw, it has gone like that since centuries and centuries). They do so due to corrupt regimes, regimes cooperating with the West, Muslims behaving too Westernised. All this is not what the Islamic ideology allows.

How many of your Muslim friends btw actively help to idfentify and report extremist preachers in their mosques and openly stand up in public demosntration calling for more tolerance and fostering of Christian and foreign cultural communities in Muslim countries? How many of them accept Israel'S right to exist in secure borders and peaceful nieghbourhood without preconditions?

I know that many Muslims in the West claim that they are compoatible with Wetsern values and freedoms. I just insist on pointing out that real Islamic values and Wetsern values are totally unac ceptable. The criterion is not what this or that guy is telling you - the criterion is the Quran and the Hadith. Quran is what defines Islam, not some opportunistic statements here and there.

And yes, it is a religious war. The tools of war have shifted a bit away from military means and towards demograpohy and intimidation and using certain dependencies (oil), but the statement by Huntington that there is a clash of civilisations is not there for no reason. And it is a clash between Asia and Islam and the West and Islam in the main. Claiming total dominance and overcoming all that is not Islamic, is Islam's understanding of "peace". Peace yes: but only under Islam'S green colour. Freedom yes - but only as far as said freedom accepts limits defined by Islamic claims and demands. Choice yes: but only as long as the choice is made for Islamic options. Tolerance yes: but only as long as the to-be-tolerated accvepts to be no equal, but an inferior who is submissive, obedient, can be discriminated in order to make him feel his inferiority that results from not hjaving converted to Islam - this discrmination is mandatory in Islam.

So think a while whether or not your Muslim friends are really that Islamic at all, or wether you really want to believe anything that they tell you about Islam.

Originally Posted by joeygroundman

i was reading somewhere that most of the demographic increase in muslim societies was due not to more births, but longer lives.

I do not b elieve thjat before I see according numbers that are solid. Women in the Ortient have far higher birth rates than in the West. In the West, women would need to give birth to 2.1 ore 2.3 babies so that the societiy maintains in population level. In Oriental and Asian countries, the birthz rates are much higher, also Muslim people in the West usually have much higher birth rates, and I know that for sure from statist6zical data for Eurpope and Germany. The birth rates can be as high as 7 or 8 babies per woman. The birth rates however tend to fall the higher the education level of the women and the higher the social class and income of the family is, that is why those poarts of Muslim colonies in the West that successfully make it up the social and income ladder sometimes reach birth rates between 2 and 3, or below. However, the population size of Muslim groups in the West is growing, while the population size of native european population in the West is shrinking. Falling birth rates amongst Muslim groups are also "compensated" by more and more Muslim people being moved in from Islamic countries. That these groups for the most refuse to really integrate and form their own separated Islamic and foreign national subcultures and parallel societies, makes things even worse. That'S why you have hotspots of critical problems in almost all Wetsern countries with significant Muslim population shares, especially in Holland, Sweden, England, Denmark, France, and increasingly Germany as well. There are places, areas and cities where the national sovereignity of the state and its authorities, the legal order of the state and the authority of the state'S police and legal system no longer exist, and where the state shies away from confronting them in order to enforce the state'S order and sovereignity, becasue it can no longer be had without immense efforts and conflicts, or is a chanceless fight for the state from the beginning on.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by joea

@ Skybird, you wrote that the West is facing a challenge from Asia as well as that of Islam-do you think Asia is as threatened by the rise of Islam as you think the West is? I cannot see China or Japan becoming "Islamicised" in any way - and China in particular is NOT restrained by any notions of PC!

I know that China on the one hand projects demographic pressure on Russian areas at its borders that the Russians do not really "own" anymore, because their population is shrinking as Europe'S population does and so the lands between Russia and China saw a decline in population, forming a vacuum into which the Chinesae since 10 or 15 years are movi9ng in - on Russian soil!

But I also know that Islam has a strengthening presence in China as well and that it raises challenges to the Chinese like it does in Russia's South, in the former Soviet provinces. So yes, Islam is a growing problem in China, too.

China additionally harbours more than 60 regional ethnic conflicts, that it suprersses in order to maintain its national integrity and prevent a falling apart like there was in the Soviet Union. This is the reason why Chinese do not pay much attention to the Tibetan issue - for them Tibet and the Dalai Lama is just one amongst over 60 other such problems. Many Chinese do not even know what the Dalai Lama is. In the West we do not know that multitude of inner conflicts in China, and so we tend to focus on just the one conflict that we know of: Tibet.

It is the ideology, it is in its genes.

See what I mean Krauter.
Its why people with even only one muslim grandparent are still a threat as its in their genes.

[Krauter]

tl;dr.

Can you sum that up so my eyes don't bleed from a text wall before my exam. Otherwise I'll come back from my exam and be behind in this discussion

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Krauter

Starting to sound mightyly like a religious war between Islamics and non-Islamics based on that sentence. Half the Muslim and Islamic people I know denounce this so called jihad against the West. Its only these bloody crackpots in power, and their thugs, as well as crackpots on 'this side' that hype up this clash in ideals.

even the struggle to convert non-Muslims or to bring back the backslider to the true Islam is part of jihad, and are two of the five jihads I posted once before. Evangelism in Islam is more than just “sharing the good news,” it is all out war. And remember Muhammad’s famous saying that, “War is deception.”

Even the ones who tell you they don't agree with the so called extreme crackpots do see whats going on in the world. Believe me they know full well what going on and how fast it's spreading and eventually hop on the band wagon. They have no choice otherwise they will join the kafir.

Know too they are taught in their religion that whosoever conceals a thing, Allah will honor him and whosoever reveals it, Allah will disgrace him. That is the doctrine of kithman and practiced in their war to win the world over to Islam. To most of us, this seems completely contrary to reason. I mean if you have something good, then share it. If not and you hide it, then I probably don’t want it anyway.

Taught also is Taqiyya; the uttering of the tongue, while the heart is comfortable with the faith. To conceal or disguise your beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury.

So while you are having a kumbaya moment with your muslim friends ask them what they think or know about the practice of Kithman and Taqiyya.

[VipertheSniper]

Originally Posted by Krauter

tl;dr.

Can you sum that up so my eyes don't bleed from a text wall before my exam. Otherwise I'll come back from my exam and be behind in this discussion

Seriously?? tl;dr. ?? Are you even interested in a serious discussion? It's not like Skybird went off on several tangents, yes he probably could've wrote a shorter piece, but the stuff adressing your comment takes 5 min's tops to read.

[the_tyrant]

Originally Posted by Krauter

tl;dr.

Can you sum that up so my eyes don't bleed from a text wall before my exam. Otherwise I'll come back from my exam and be behind in this discussion

Good luck!

Muslim people in Canada aren't bad, they took the "black, hip" identity
Listening to rap music and wearing hoodies

even the struggle to convert non-Muslims or to bring back the backslider to the true Islam is part of jihad

But which is the true version?
It certainly can't be them crazies that are doing the killing.

And remember Muhammad’s famous saying that, “War is deception.”

Wow war is deception.
Damn I never would have thought that, its not like a concept thousands of years before such a thing as muslims is it,
......perhaps he borrowed from bible stories.