Aircraft kill in TMO!

[TorpX]

Yes, quite so.

I'm in a S-boat also. No radar, no AA and best of all, the RFB corp. shipyard decided to use paper-mache for my hull, instead of the "old- fashioned" steel.


I've been lucky on this patrol though. Only bombed twice in 3 weeks.

Part of the problem may be my crew not spotting the AC soon enough. On more than one occasion, when I checked the perisccpe, the AC seemed pretty close. Now, if in doubt, I go deep.

[Arael]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Razark:

I know very well they can see you under ideal conditions. Looking at your photos, notice they are viewed from directly overhead. I'm talking about them being able to see you from a mile or perhaps more when the angle isn't nearly as favorable. From what I have seen in the game, and what others have posted, it seems they can see you at PS depth almost as if you are on the surface, or they have a amazing clairvoyant ability to fly right over you, when probibilities suggest otherwise.

Keep in mind it is a game, and all games have limitations. Unless it's told otherwise, the bit running the plane could see you bottoming out in the Marianas Trench while flying around on the moon. That being said, as I recall TMO was actually modded so the planes could see through the water. I seem to recall the creator saying that he had to actually set the plane's sight to react to thermal layers just so the planes wouldn't see you no matter what. I've experienced this first-hand. I've also experienced a plane flying right over my Air Search Radar mast while I'm at periscope depth in RSRD without them spotting me. So if I had to wager a guess, I'm betting the issue is probably based upon the RFB mod changing the aircraft's sight capabilities without the program having a probability roller in place to check if the airplane actually sees you. So because the plane can "see" through water without the program running, for lack of a better term, a "dice roll" to see if the plane will act on that information, you end up with clairvoyant aircraft. There's probably not a lot you can do about it.

[WH4K]

I now have a Salmon-class (USS Seal), but the single 20mm cannon isn't a huge improvement. On my last patrol, I ended up using most of it to sink an H6K flying boat.

Speaking of the H6K, it seemed to take a ridiculously large amount of my 20mm ammo before going up in flames. Is that normal? Seems kind of unrealistic. I would think the first few dozen rounds would have shredded it sufficiently to catch fire and/or sink.

But there are issues with some things sinking in SH4. I caught a Japanese sub unaware back when I still had an S-boat, but it just wouldn't sink. Despite the gaping hole my torpedo tore in its engine room, and my crew having declared, "She's going down!", the sub continued floating there, with crew at the guns and on the bridge.

Also I notice i'm picking up sound contacts while on the surface, in my Salmon-class boat. How is that possible? I thought:
1) the hydrophone is only submerged when the boat is at least at periscope depth
2) I shouldn't be able to hear anything anyway over my diesel engines.

[WernherVonTrapp]

Originally Posted by WH4K

I now have a Salmon-class (USS Seal), but the single 20mm cannon isn't a huge improvement. On my last patrol, I ended up using most of it to sink an H6K flying boat.

Speaking of the H6K, it seemed to take a ridiculously large amount of my 20mm ammo before going up in flames. Is that normal? Seems kind of unrealistic. I would think the first few dozen rounds would have shredded it sufficiently to catch fire and/or sink.

Speculating/Extrapolating:
I think by 1943, it was no secret to naval intel that Japanese planes did not have self-sealing fuel tanks and with the use of incendiary rounds, could ignite quite easily. On the other hand, hitting a moving target from a moving target still seems like it might be a bit tricky to pull off. In addition, I don't know how common/uncommon it was for subs to carry incendiary rounds.

[Arael]

Originally Posted by WH4K

Also I notice i'm picking up sound contacts while on the surface, in my Salmon-class boat. How is that possible? I thought:
1) the hydrophone is only submerged when the boat is at least at periscope depth
2) I shouldn't be able to hear anything anyway over my diesel engines.

If you go to external view and look at the chin of your sub, you can see a pair of spheres hanging off the bottom of the boat. Those are the hydrophones. That's why you can pick up sound contacts on the surface.

[WH4K]

Got it. I wasn't sure where the hydrophones were on a Salmon-class, and was having no luck looking it up either.

As for the H6N, it was parked at a dock when I shot it up. I was shooting it from only a couple hundred yards, but maybe I was missing a lot.

The Japanese aircraft sure are persistent. As suggested, they're easy to catch on fire, but the other day I had two keep bombing me despite being on fire. Unfortunately, my sub started a one-way dive before they could burn up enough to crash.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Arael

Keep in mind it is a game, and all games have limitations. Unless it's told otherwise, the bit running the plane could see you bottoming out in the Marianas Trench while flying around on the moon. That being said, as I recall TMO was actually modded so the planes could see through the water. I seem to recall the creator saying that he had to actually set the plane's sight to react to thermal layers just so the planes wouldn't see you no matter what. I've experienced this first-hand. I've also experienced a plane flying right over my Air Search Radar mast while I'm at periscope depth in RSRD without them spotting me. So if I had to wager a guess, I'm betting the issue is probably based upon the RFB mod changing the aircraft's sight capabilities without the program having a probability roller in place to check if the airplane actually sees you. So because the plane can "see" through water without the program running, for lack of a better term, a "dice roll" to see if the plane will act on that information, you end up with clairvoyant aircraft. There's probably not a lot you can do about it.

You may be right. It bothers me though, because it seemed this is another example of something that was well modeled in SHCE. It couldn't have been that difficult. If you are saying that RFB messed up something in the game, perhaps someone could figure out a way to straighten it out. I don't expect the game to be perfect, but there are a lot of examples of things that defy the laws of physics.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by WH4K

As for the H6N, it was parked at a dock when I shot it up. I was shooting it from only a couple hundred yards, but maybe I was missing a lot.

The Japanese aircraft sure are persistent. As suggested, they're easy to catch on fire, but the other day I had two keep bombing me despite being on fire. Unfortunately, my sub started a one-way dive before they could burn up enough to crash.

I think part of the problem you had is due to the simplistic models used. By that I mean, there is a difference between damadging/disabling X and destroying X. A few 20mm hits could KO an engine or perforate a fuel tank, but wouldn't neccessarily disrupt an attack or cause the loss of the plane (though it might). To sink/destroy the same plane, at anchor, might well require hundreds of rounds (unless set on fire). Generally, it takes much more firepower to destroy something, than to damadge it.

[Arael]

Originally Posted by TorpX

You may be right. It bothers me though, because it seemed this is another example of something that was well modeled in SHCE. It couldn't have been that difficult. If you are saying that RFB messed up something in the game, perhaps someone could figure out a way to straighten it out. I don't expect the game to be perfect, but there are a lot of examples of things that defy the laws of physics.

I'm not sure it is fixable. As far as I can tell stock Silent Hunter 4 does not model aircraft being able to see down to periscope depth. As far as the program is concerned, the water is a brick wall that sight cannot pass. What RFB and the others do is move that wall, allowing the computer to "see" your sub at periscope depth. The problem is that although you and I can barely see the sub at periscope depth unless the camera is directly above, the computer has no such limitations. Because the sight "Wall" was moved down to 100 or so feet below the water, the computer can see all the way down to that "wall" without any problem. Now, if the game was built with planes being able to see periscope level targets, the developers would have put in a random number generator to govern, via chance, whether the plane could actually see the submarine while it was underwater. Without that generator, the plane will always see you as long as you're above the sight wall.

About the only thing I can think of that would fix this problem is if somehow you were able to convince the game that everything below the ocean's surface is treated as a fog bank. By doing this, it would bring in the game's probability calculations with regards to whether or not a ship can see you if you're on the surface in a fog bank.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Arael

Because the sight "Wall" was moved down to 100 or so feet below the water, the computer can see all the way down to that "wall" without any problem. Now, if the game was built with planes being able to see periscope level targets, the developers would have put in a random number generator to govern, via chance, whether the plane could actually see the submarine while it was underwater. Without that generator, the plane will always see you as long as you're above the sight wall.

Yikes! I'm living on borrowed time.

[WH4K]

Shot down a pesky H6N yesterday.

I was very surprised. I really didn't think I was hitting him, but he was doing one of those steep climbs they do after a bombing run, and I kept shooting at his backside.

Next thing I know, he bursts into flames and starts coming apart!

20mm twin cannon for the win!

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by WH4K

Shot down a pesky H6N yesterday.

They are annoying, aren't they.

Congrats.