Aircraft kill in TMO!

[Ducimus]

Some aircraft are easier to shoot down then others. Just FYI, the 40 mike mike AA rounds in TMO have a very large splash damage radius.

[TorpX]

I play RFB/RSRDC and experience the same problems. The Jap planes seem to be crewed by expert pilots with X-ray vision. I've come to accept the reality that I'm not safe at periscope depth. On another forum I read they can see you at PS depth from 2000yds! I consider this extremely questionable.

I had a good career in S-boats, terminated by bomb attack. After dodging several attacks, they got me. I was at the end of a lousy 2 month patrol, having seen only 1 ship, but at least 50 airplanes. You have no radar and no AA. They wear you down. I made the mistake of diving to PS depth instead of 200'. By the time I realized he was coming straight at us, it was too late. Went straight to the bottom.

More recently, I was at PS depth when the crew spotted aircraft. I took a very brief look, and saw he was going to be approaching close and ordered crash dive. As we were leveling off at 150', there was an explosion that was close enough to shake the boat. As I play DiD, I don't want to take any unneccessary chances, but this seems absurd. Really now, how can an airplane spot you at PS depth, when your crew can barely see them?

[razark]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Really now, how can an airplane spot you at PS depth, when your crew can barely see them?

[TorpX]

Razark:

I know very well they can see you under ideal conditions. Looking at your photos, notice they are viewed from directly overhead. I'm talking about them being able to see you from a mile or perhaps more when the angle isn't nearly as favorable. From what I have seen in the game, and what others have posted, it seems they can see you at PS depth almost as if you are on the surface, or they have a amazing clairvoyant ability to fly right over you, when probibilities suggest otherwise.

[razark]

Originally Posted by TorpX

From what I have seen in the game, and what others have posted, it seems they can see you at PS depth almost as if you are on the surface, or they have a amazing clairvoyant ability to fly right over you, when probibilities suggest otherwise.

I honestly wouldn't know. I never stick around if the airplanes are out flying around. I might just have to test it out sometime.

[WH4K]

What's really annoying is when you're in an S-boat, which has no AA armament at all.

Anytime I venture into areas with Japanese air cover, it's yo-yo city.

[TorpX]

Yes, quite so.

I'm in a S-boat also. No radar, no AA and best of all, the RFB corp. shipyard decided to use paper-mache for my hull, instead of the "old- fashioned" steel.


I've been lucky on this patrol though. Only bombed twice in 3 weeks.

Part of the problem may be my crew not spotting the AC soon enough. On more than one occasion, when I checked the perisccpe, the AC seemed pretty close. Now, if in doubt, I go deep.

[Arael]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Razark:

I know very well they can see you under ideal conditions. Looking at your photos, notice they are viewed from directly overhead. I'm talking about them being able to see you from a mile or perhaps more when the angle isn't nearly as favorable. From what I have seen in the game, and what others have posted, it seems they can see you at PS depth almost as if you are on the surface, or they have a amazing clairvoyant ability to fly right over you, when probibilities suggest otherwise.

Keep in mind it is a game, and all games have limitations. Unless it's told otherwise, the bit running the plane could see you bottoming out in the Marianas Trench while flying around on the moon. That being said, as I recall TMO was actually modded so the planes could see through the water. I seem to recall the creator saying that he had to actually set the plane's sight to react to thermal layers just so the planes wouldn't see you no matter what. I've experienced this first-hand. I've also experienced a plane flying right over my Air Search Radar mast while I'm at periscope depth in RSRD without them spotting me. So if I had to wager a guess, I'm betting the issue is probably based upon the RFB mod changing the aircraft's sight capabilities without the program having a probability roller in place to check if the airplane actually sees you. So because the plane can "see" through water without the program running, for lack of a better term, a "dice roll" to see if the plane will act on that information, you end up with clairvoyant aircraft. There's probably not a lot you can do about it.

[WH4K]

I now have a Salmon-class (USS Seal), but the single 20mm cannon isn't a huge improvement. On my last patrol, I ended up using most of it to sink an H6K flying boat.

Speaking of the H6K, it seemed to take a ridiculously large amount of my 20mm ammo before going up in flames. Is that normal? Seems kind of unrealistic. I would think the first few dozen rounds would have shredded it sufficiently to catch fire and/or sink.

But there are issues with some things sinking in SH4. I caught a Japanese sub unaware back when I still had an S-boat, but it just wouldn't sink. Despite the gaping hole my torpedo tore in its engine room, and my crew having declared, "She's going down!", the sub continued floating there, with crew at the guns and on the bridge.

Also I notice i'm picking up sound contacts while on the surface, in my Salmon-class boat. How is that possible? I thought:
1) the hydrophone is only submerged when the boat is at least at periscope depth
2) I shouldn't be able to hear anything anyway over my diesel engines.

[WernherVonTrapp]

Originally Posted by WH4K

I now have a Salmon-class (USS Seal), but the single 20mm cannon isn't a huge improvement. On my last patrol, I ended up using most of it to sink an H6K flying boat.

Speaking of the H6K, it seemed to take a ridiculously large amount of my 20mm ammo before going up in flames. Is that normal? Seems kind of unrealistic. I would think the first few dozen rounds would have shredded it sufficiently to catch fire and/or sink.

Speculating/Extrapolating:
I think by 1943, it was no secret to naval intel that Japanese planes did not have self-sealing fuel tanks and with the use of incendiary rounds, could ignite quite easily. On the other hand, hitting a moving target from a moving target still seems like it might be a bit tricky to pull off. In addition, I don't know how common/uncommon it was for subs to carry incendiary rounds.

[Arael]

Originally Posted by WH4K

Also I notice i'm picking up sound contacts while on the surface, in my Salmon-class boat. How is that possible? I thought:
1) the hydrophone is only submerged when the boat is at least at periscope depth
2) I shouldn't be able to hear anything anyway over my diesel engines.

If you go to external view and look at the chin of your sub, you can see a pair of spheres hanging off the bottom of the boat. Those are the hydrophones. That's why you can pick up sound contacts on the surface.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Arael

Keep in mind it is a game, and all games have limitations. Unless it's told otherwise, the bit running the plane could see you bottoming out in the Marianas Trench while flying around on the moon. That being said, as I recall TMO was actually modded so the planes could see through the water. I seem to recall the creator saying that he had to actually set the plane's sight to react to thermal layers just so the planes wouldn't see you no matter what. I've experienced this first-hand. I've also experienced a plane flying right over my Air Search Radar mast while I'm at periscope depth in RSRD without them spotting me. So if I had to wager a guess, I'm betting the issue is probably based upon the RFB mod changing the aircraft's sight capabilities without the program having a probability roller in place to check if the airplane actually sees you. So because the plane can "see" through water without the program running, for lack of a better term, a "dice roll" to see if the plane will act on that information, you end up with clairvoyant aircraft. There's probably not a lot you can do about it.

You may be right. It bothers me though, because it seemed this is another example of something that was well modeled in SHCE. It couldn't have been that difficult. If you are saying that RFB messed up something in the game, perhaps someone could figure out a way to straighten it out. I don't expect the game to be perfect, but there are a lot of examples of things that defy the laws of physics.

[Arael]

Originally Posted by TorpX

You may be right. It bothers me though, because it seemed this is another example of something that was well modeled in SHCE. It couldn't have been that difficult. If you are saying that RFB messed up something in the game, perhaps someone could figure out a way to straighten it out. I don't expect the game to be perfect, but there are a lot of examples of things that defy the laws of physics.

I'm not sure it is fixable. As far as I can tell stock Silent Hunter 4 does not model aircraft being able to see down to periscope depth. As far as the program is concerned, the water is a brick wall that sight cannot pass. What RFB and the others do is move that wall, allowing the computer to "see" your sub at periscope depth. The problem is that although you and I can barely see the sub at periscope depth unless the camera is directly above, the computer has no such limitations. Because the sight "Wall" was moved down to 100 or so feet below the water, the computer can see all the way down to that "wall" without any problem. Now, if the game was built with planes being able to see periscope level targets, the developers would have put in a random number generator to govern, via chance, whether the plane could actually see the submarine while it was underwater. Without that generator, the plane will always see you as long as you're above the sight wall.

About the only thing I can think of that would fix this problem is if somehow you were able to convince the game that everything below the ocean's surface is treated as a fog bank. By doing this, it would bring in the game's probability calculations with regards to whether or not a ship can see you if you're on the surface in a fog bank.