A system of revenge

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Kazuaki Shimazaki II,

That question is rigged, because the defector in question assisted the US. If MaddogK was a Russian citizen, then the question would be reasonable. Your trying to compare a person who HARMED MaddogK's country with one who helped it.

What your doing is setting up a moralistic question against a patriotic one.

Morally, Viktor was in the wrong. However the view of a US patriot contradicts that. This is your intent of course, to see which supercedes, moral fiber or patriotic ferver.

Looks like you basically got my intent - I want to demodulate MaddogK's attitude into "promise breaking" or "hurting his own country" versus "hurting the US" components. Perhaps rather nasty of me but serious discussion IMO is only worthwhile if it is mostly the former rather than the latter.

The problem here is that while Viktor did in fact HELP the US, while harming the Soviet Union, Pvt. Manning has harmed the US but helped NO ONE. He has not saved any lives, he hasn't changed the course, but he has done irreperable harm to his country and his fellow service members - for what? So that terrorists could pour through the documents and figure out who some informants were? So they could know more about which arab governments to trust, and which to target?

All this guy did was harm. He is lucky he isn't up facing crimes against humanity charges IF he was the one who actually did it.

Analogies are never 100% fits, but I'll disagree. Viktor definitely hadn't saved lives or changed the course of his country other than making sure yet another sum of roubles would be destined for weapons changing (not even developing) rather than the Soviet People, and it is hard to see how he could realistically have hoped otherwise. Personally, I think Viktor is a whiny, traitorous brat and I'm not Russian.

Now for Manning (yes he isn't convicted, but we probably all think he did it, and if not his name can be used as a convenient placeholder for whoever actually did).

His critics often say (summarized) "Manning deserves execution" and "Manning didn't leak anything too stunning" simultaneously. IMO, it is one or the other. In any case, considering the opponent and data content, it can't be as painful as the MiG-25 was. As for the "help" side of the equation, there is hope (at least more than in Belenko's actions) that the leaks will cause additional media pressure for the US troops to return home. The idea that Iraq and Afghanistan intervention was a mistake is hardly uncommon even in the US, and if we agree with that premise, than anything that helps the US make the decision to recall the troops is a good thing. So Manning broke the law, but I don't think he's a traitor.