A system of revenge

[August]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Yes, he did fail his duty as a soldier.
But as a citizen of the United States, he did what he should have done.

No he betrayed his fellow soldiers and his country and he's gonna burn for it.

Seriously, why do you Americans put so much emphasis on this guy, and not on what your government does? Your government is the bigger criminal here. Yet you all insist on going after the "petty thief" while letting the big bad guy walk away.

Does this mean that:
- You are so indoctrinated by your government that you accept everything it does to you
- You think your government is entitled to do literally everything it wants, even things that go against your own constitution
- You think that being a spy is a bigger crime than being a government that betrays and lies to its own people

Now which of the above is it?

None of the above. Your very questions show you do not understand us at all.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by August

No he betrayed his fellow soldiers and his country

He betrayed his fellow soldiers. He has broken his oath. He betrayed his government. He didn't betray his country.

and he's gonna burn for it.

Ah, the sweet smell of revenge

None of the above. Your very questions show you do not understand us at all.

If it's none of the above, then what is it? Why are you all angered because of this Manning guy, while you don't seem to care about what your government did?

And you're quite right about me not understanding US citizens. You guys keep surprising me time after time, and not for the better.

[August]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

He betrayed his fellow soldiers. He has broken his oath. He betrayed his government. He didn't betray his country.

They're the same thing. "government by the people, for the people and of the people". It's a concept you Europeans with your long history of monarchs and dictators probably just don't seem able to understand.

Ah, the sweet smell of revenge

What revenge? A hope isn't revenge. It isn't even a threat of revenge, or are you implying that I personally have a say in Mannings guilt or innocence?

If it's none of the above, then what is it? Why are you all angered because of this Manning guy, while you don't seem to care about what your government did?

What exactly has our government done that's so bad according to Wikileaks? Being worried about Indian bio weapon custody? Seeing Russia as run by organized crime? Talking about Ghadaffis large breasted assistant? You people keep implying there is some sort of bombshell dropped by Assange. So far all I see is a few slight embarrassments.

You guys keep surprising me time after time, and not for the better.

Oh i'll sure loose sleep over that!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

They're the same thing. "government by the people, for the people and of the people". It's a concept you Europeans with your long history of monarchs and dictators probably just don't seem able to understand.

Maybe we have learned to no longer being so naive to believe that idealistic utopia. You are basing on a theoretical concept - and take that as the excisting reality. But the reality does fail you. You refuse to see that. The truth is your nation is as little democratic anymore as ours, but is as oligarchic and plutocratic like ours. The strings of power are pulled by people who are unavailable for your precious little election comedies or any legitimation procedures in a democratic understanding. For a former soldier who believed he served his country and people it must be difficult to accepot that he only had served the business intzerests of a few profiteers, all soldiers seem to have that problem becasue nobody wnats to believe that he served a purpose that is murky at best. If you serve in the military and risk your life, you want to do that with the conviction that you served the forces of light and honour and justice (as long as you are no mercenary at least). The truth is not welcomed, I totally understand that. But still it is the truth, welcomed or not. You have been betrayed and lied to. The only question that counts now is - how much longer do you buy their lies?

Originally Posted by Skybird

But the reality does fail you. You refuse to see that.

ok Skybird, we get it, you think his jail cell and conditions aren't a very comfortable place to be and you think it should be better, but if he is monitored less as you seam to want, then when he commits suicide you will be posting murder conspiracies the second that happens so you get posting topics either way.

i got news for you, go see the conditions in any supermax segregation unit if you want to see how convicted criminals are treated, so far this guy has gotten no more or less rough treatment then any dangerous criminal waiting to stand trial would get.

and to use your own words:
The truth is not welcomed, I totally understand that. But still it is the truth, welcomed or not.

[TLAM Strike]

Ever think this guy is locked away for his own protection. How do you think the other prisoners will treat him giving what he is accused of doing.

If he is convicted he will no doubt be incarcerated in the same quarters not just for his punishment but for his safety.

[Oberon]

No real surprises, actually, one real surprise that he hasn't suffered a 9mm brain hemorrhage yet, or hung himself...no, hanging himself, that'll probably be the method. Oh dear, suicide, what a shame, next...

He knows what he did, he knew what the consequences would be, just like when he signed up he knew that he might one day be called upon to fight a war. I understand why he did what he did, and I suspect that he hopes to be a martyr for his cause, perhaps he will get that wish, but chances are it will be wrapped up in a nice cover story which will discredit him enough to avoid mass-martyrdom.
Espionage is a murky game, just ask Mr Litvenenko or Mr Markov, and what Mr Manning conducted was espionage, it's a bit more complicated because he wasn't working for a foreign country, however it is still the divulging of top secret documents outside of their intended area.
Now, the outcome of what he did is a double edged sword, on one hand, a lot of nations know where they stand with the US now without the diplomatic bull, on the other hand a fair few diplomatic bridges have been burnt or badly singed. To be honest, if there was a wikileaks from the UK, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few choice words about the US in there along with about fifteen pages worth of choice words about Russia, the way things are at the moment, but because that's just supposition, the great US-UK friendship is...well...no...it's pretty dire at the moment, but I think that's a sign of the new great isolationism which the US is toying with at the moment in the greater rift between the US and Europe which seems to deepen by the year, it's a shame but it's also not the first time the US has gone isolationist, and it's always eventually come back out to play, usually when someone in Europe has gone nuts and tried to invade the rest of Europe...hopefully not Germany again this time, that would just be too cliché.

Anyway, it's late, and I'm rambling...which means I'm starting to make less sense than usual. So I'll sum it up with a TLDR:

PFC Manning knew what he was doing, and knew what he would get, he has exposed a pretty dodgy system, but then again every flaming government is bloody dodgy these days and no-one's going to do jack about it, even with wikileaks. So his ultimate sacrifice, because this chap is probably going to wind up dead somehow, will be in vain because it will take a LOT more than wikileaks to get a modern western global power nation to bring down its government...and even then, what would replace it? Not something better I'd be willing to bet, most likely military rule. So, really, as rubbish as the system is, and it is rubbish, there is not really much in the way of an alternative with human nature as it is. If some divine being came down and removed human greed and hording tendencies, and lowered our reproductive drive a little (sorry California) then perhaps we could just drop-kick money and governments and live in the 1960s...but that would take some divine intervention and I don't know if even the big man could pull that off, more likely than not he'd rather do a three pin boot.


(Disclaimer: This post was made at 0154Z, by an individual that really should have gone to bed two hours beforehand, therefore any insults that may be derived from the aforementioned post should not be taken to heart and instead discarded as the disjointed ramblings of a tired islander)

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by August

They're the same thing. "government by the people, for the people and of the people". It's a concept you Europeans with your long history of monarchs and dictators probably just don't seem able to understand.

Our long history of monarchs and dictators has learned us not to blindly trust the government, and overthrow them if necessary (French revolution, anyone? Republic of the Seven United Netherlands? Russia 1917? Berlin wall?) If there's anything we Europeans understand a lot better than the US, it's that there is no such thing as a "government by the people, for the people and of the people." We have been betrayed too often to believe that anymore. Which is why we don't put blind faith in them like you seem to do.

What revenge? A hope isn't revenge. It isn't even a threat of revenge, or are you implying that I personally have a say in Mannings guilt or innocence?

You are hoping for revenge. He betrayed the US military, and you hope he will "burn for it". How does that not qualify as revenge? As Skybird says, it looks awfully much like you've already made up your mind about his guilt. A suspect is innocent until proven guilty, remember?

Also:

Ever seen this monty python scene? To most Europeans I know the US reaction on Assange an Manning seems awfully much like it.

What exactly has our government done that's so bad according to Wikileaks? Being worried about Indian bio weapon custody? Seeing Russia as run by organized crime? Talking about Ghadaffis large breasted assistant? You people keep implying there is some sort of bombshell dropped by Assange. So far all I see is a few slight embarrassments.

A 1 minute google search shows at least these two things. I'm pretty sure there's much more out there (remember that a massive majority of documents hasn't even been released yet) but really don't want to spend more time searching for things the US has done wrong.

http://mgx.com/blogs/2010/12/07/wiki...cancun-cop-16/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...bles-spying-un

[MaddogK]

I think you're weeping a bit too much for this guy DF, just because his lawyers say he's being mistreated doesn't mean it's true.

Remember, O.J.'s lawyers said he was innocent.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by MaddogK

I think you're weeping a bit too much for this guy DF, just because his lawyers say he's being mistreated doesn't mean it's true.

It doesn't mean it's not true either.

Remember, O.J.'s lawyers said he was innocent.

Yeah, and Roy Williamsons prosecutor said he was guilty

[MaddogK]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

It doesn't mean it's not true either.

Yeah, and Roy Williamsons prosecutor said he was guilty

Roy Williamsons lawyers were incompetant:

The defense failed to point out that although the hair samples could have implicated the pair, they equally could have cleared them both. Despite his rapidly failing mental health, no motion was made to assess Williamson's competence.

...Maybe Mannings are as well.

[CaptainHaplo]

@ Skybird....

His cell is 6x12 and he is the sole occupant.

The average US jail cell? 6x8 and normally has 2 occupants.
Those under a life sentence are in an 8x10 cell which also has 2 occupants.

Manning is being held at what is called "Supermax" level. The standard is not just in the US but is used in Europe as well. This entails constant supervision, via camera and in person when required. The requirement is a check on the prisoners welfare every 30 or 60 minutes - not 5 as suggested by his attorney. So we have the first exaggeration. Then, folks like you, Skybird, embellish it more with the "decrease his oxygen level" hyperbole. Take an uncomfortable situation, one person sensationalizes it, and now those who support the ACTS do the same...

Want to complain about the kind of treatment a Supermax prisoner gets, Skybird? How about you go picket or protest outside Stammheim Prison (you can find it it Baden-Württemberg) since YOUR government, YOUR country - is doing the exact same thing to its Supermax prisoners there....

Or are you complaining just because you happen to think what this guy is accused of is no crime and thus have a different standard?

See, this is where us Americans have such a problem. Europeans castigate us and fault us, when oftentimes they are doing the exact same things in their countries, but turn a blind eye to it.

Pointing out the mud on another fish's fins won't help you swim. Complaining about us doesn't put you on some higher stool because your doing the same thing in your "back yard".... Telling us how we are evil and wrong when your country does the same thing just makes us wonder why it is you feel threatened by us - because there is no other explanation as to why you would attack us for doing the same things your doing yourself unless your insecure or fearful. I don't mean that as an attack on you skybird, but rather its the reason why Americans often discount European viewpoints entirely. Double standards don't fly with us too well.

Europe has at least 15 "Supermax" facilities (though they also house less dangerous elements as well). Ireland, England, Scotland, the Netherlands, Denmark and of course Germany have them that I know of.

@ Darkfish - since your unhappy about this too - and your in the Netherlands - when did you last go speak out against the treatment of prisoners held at Nieuw Vosseveld in Vught?

As for the links you provided - hmmm diplomats acting as spies. Gee, that never has happened before has it? I mean, its not regular practice for all nations to place intelligence operatives as diplomats? Pfft - wow its so EMBARRASSING to get found out that your doing the same thing everyone else is ..... please. The second - hmmm ya know we give you alot of foreign aid because you can't seem to govern your way out of a poverty paper bag - and since we have been helping you out alot with foreign aid we'd really like it if you did us a favor. Of course, if you can't see your way to do it we might need to reconsider our friendship since that would make you nothing but a parasite of our people.... Yea buddy that sure is a horrible thing to do isn't it? Especially when its being done to SUPPORT ecological and climate "good behavior"..... I mean sheesh, I could see people yelling if we did it to support genocide - but to support the agenda of tree huggers around the world, and people STILL complain???

There seems also to be some confusion regarding Manning going to court with some of the posters here. He will NOT be tried in a civilian court. His trial will conform to military standards, not civilian ones. Nor is he, as property of the US government (which he is by his voluntary act of enlistment), entitled to a speedy trial of his peers.

The issue here isn't how he is being treated. The only reason you Europeans are here whining and pointing your fingers and shaking your heads at us is because you don't see anything wrong with what was done, if he was the one to do it.

[August]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Our long history of monarchs and dictators has learned us not to blindly trust the government, and overthrow them if necessary (French revolution, anyone? Republic of the Seven United Netherlands? Russia 1917? Berlin wall?) If there's anything we Europeans understand a lot better than the US, it's that there is no such thing as a "government by the people, for the people and of the people." We have been betrayed too often to believe that anymore Which is why we don't put blind faith in them like you seem to do.

And I'd counter by saying that your European mistrust and disownership of your own governments have never really worked out all that well as the long history of bloody European wars and various pogroms clearly attests.

You are hoping for revenge. He betrayed the US military, and you hope he will "burn for it". How does that not qualify as revenge?

Because revenge is an act, not a hope! Action versus preference. Do you not understand such a basic difference? It's like me saying that because you seem to dislike our government that you're overthrowing it.

A suspect is innocent until proven guilty, remember?

Immaterial. That is a standard for those who have to determine a persons guilt or innocence, not the general public. As Americans we're allowed to have our opinions without the nanny state stepping in to tell us what we can or cannot say, unlike you Europeans who can't even state the obvious without being threatened with jail for their troubles.

Oh and I still think OJ did it.

To most Europeans I know the US reaction on Assange an Manning seems awfully much like it.

Yeah well Europeans have been misunderstanding us and prognosticating our doom for over 200 years. Y'all ain't been right yet.

A 1 minute google search shows at least these two things.

Hopefully that's not the best you can do! "OMG we collected data on the UN leadership and tried to curry favor by giving aid! Tear down the Statue of Liberty. We are so chagrined!"

I'm pretty sure there's much more out there (remember that a massive majority of documents hasn't even been released yet) but really don't want to spend more time searching for things the US has done wrong.

No you'd rather make some serious allegations and then not provide any real proof to back them up.