A system of revenge

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by August

They're the same thing. "government by the people, for the people and of the people". It's a concept you Europeans with your long history of monarchs and dictators probably just don't seem able to understand.

Our long history of monarchs and dictators has learned us not to blindly trust the government, and overthrow them if necessary (French revolution, anyone? Republic of the Seven United Netherlands? Russia 1917? Berlin wall?) If there's anything we Europeans understand a lot better than the US, it's that there is no such thing as a "government by the people, for the people and of the people." We have been betrayed too often to believe that anymore. Which is why we don't put blind faith in them like you seem to do.

What revenge? A hope isn't revenge. It isn't even a threat of revenge, or are you implying that I personally have a say in Mannings guilt or innocence?

You are hoping for revenge. He betrayed the US military, and you hope he will "burn for it". How does that not qualify as revenge? As Skybird says, it looks awfully much like you've already made up your mind about his guilt. A suspect is innocent until proven guilty, remember?

Also:

Ever seen this monty python scene? To most Europeans I know the US reaction on Assange an Manning seems awfully much like it.

What exactly has our government done that's so bad according to Wikileaks? Being worried about Indian bio weapon custody? Seeing Russia as run by organized crime? Talking about Ghadaffis large breasted assistant? You people keep implying there is some sort of bombshell dropped by Assange. So far all I see is a few slight embarrassments.

A 1 minute google search shows at least these two things. I'm pretty sure there's much more out there (remember that a massive majority of documents hasn't even been released yet) but really don't want to spend more time searching for things the US has done wrong.

http://mgx.com/blogs/2010/12/07/wiki...cancun-cop-16/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...bles-spying-un

[MaddogK]

I think you're weeping a bit too much for this guy DF, just because his lawyers say he's being mistreated doesn't mean it's true.

Remember, O.J.'s lawyers said he was innocent.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by MaddogK

I think you're weeping a bit too much for this guy DF, just because his lawyers say he's being mistreated doesn't mean it's true.

It doesn't mean it's not true either.

Remember, O.J.'s lawyers said he was innocent.

Yeah, and Roy Williamsons prosecutor said he was guilty

[MaddogK]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

It doesn't mean it's not true either.

Yeah, and Roy Williamsons prosecutor said he was guilty

Roy Williamsons lawyers were incompetant:

The defense failed to point out that although the hair samples could have implicated the pair, they equally could have cleared them both. Despite his rapidly failing mental health, no motion was made to assess Williamson's competence.

...Maybe Mannings are as well.

[CaptainHaplo]

@ Skybird....

His cell is 6x12 and he is the sole occupant.

The average US jail cell? 6x8 and normally has 2 occupants.
Those under a life sentence are in an 8x10 cell which also has 2 occupants.

Manning is being held at what is called "Supermax" level. The standard is not just in the US but is used in Europe as well. This entails constant supervision, via camera and in person when required. The requirement is a check on the prisoners welfare every 30 or 60 minutes - not 5 as suggested by his attorney. So we have the first exaggeration. Then, folks like you, Skybird, embellish it more with the "decrease his oxygen level" hyperbole. Take an uncomfortable situation, one person sensationalizes it, and now those who support the ACTS do the same...

Want to complain about the kind of treatment a Supermax prisoner gets, Skybird? How about you go picket or protest outside Stammheim Prison (you can find it it Baden-Württemberg) since YOUR government, YOUR country - is doing the exact same thing to its Supermax prisoners there....

Or are you complaining just because you happen to think what this guy is accused of is no crime and thus have a different standard?

See, this is where us Americans have such a problem. Europeans castigate us and fault us, when oftentimes they are doing the exact same things in their countries, but turn a blind eye to it.

Pointing out the mud on another fish's fins won't help you swim. Complaining about us doesn't put you on some higher stool because your doing the same thing in your "back yard".... Telling us how we are evil and wrong when your country does the same thing just makes us wonder why it is you feel threatened by us - because there is no other explanation as to why you would attack us for doing the same things your doing yourself unless your insecure or fearful. I don't mean that as an attack on you skybird, but rather its the reason why Americans often discount European viewpoints entirely. Double standards don't fly with us too well.

Europe has at least 15 "Supermax" facilities (though they also house less dangerous elements as well). Ireland, England, Scotland, the Netherlands, Denmark and of course Germany have them that I know of.

@ Darkfish - since your unhappy about this too - and your in the Netherlands - when did you last go speak out against the treatment of prisoners held at Nieuw Vosseveld in Vught?

As for the links you provided - hmmm diplomats acting as spies. Gee, that never has happened before has it? I mean, its not regular practice for all nations to place intelligence operatives as diplomats? Pfft - wow its so EMBARRASSING to get found out that your doing the same thing everyone else is ..... please. The second - hmmm ya know we give you alot of foreign aid because you can't seem to govern your way out of a poverty paper bag - and since we have been helping you out alot with foreign aid we'd really like it if you did us a favor. Of course, if you can't see your way to do it we might need to reconsider our friendship since that would make you nothing but a parasite of our people.... Yea buddy that sure is a horrible thing to do isn't it? Especially when its being done to SUPPORT ecological and climate "good behavior"..... I mean sheesh, I could see people yelling if we did it to support genocide - but to support the agenda of tree huggers around the world, and people STILL complain???

There seems also to be some confusion regarding Manning going to court with some of the posters here. He will NOT be tried in a civilian court. His trial will conform to military standards, not civilian ones. Nor is he, as property of the US government (which he is by his voluntary act of enlistment), entitled to a speedy trial of his peers.

The issue here isn't how he is being treated. The only reason you Europeans are here whining and pointing your fingers and shaking your heads at us is because you don't see anything wrong with what was done, if he was the one to do it.

[August]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Our long history of monarchs and dictators has learned us not to blindly trust the government, and overthrow them if necessary (French revolution, anyone? Republic of the Seven United Netherlands? Russia 1917? Berlin wall?) If there's anything we Europeans understand a lot better than the US, it's that there is no such thing as a "government by the people, for the people and of the people." We have been betrayed too often to believe that anymore Which is why we don't put blind faith in them like you seem to do.

And I'd counter by saying that your European mistrust and disownership of your own governments have never really worked out all that well as the long history of bloody European wars and various pogroms clearly attests.

You are hoping for revenge. He betrayed the US military, and you hope he will "burn for it". How does that not qualify as revenge?

Because revenge is an act, not a hope! Action versus preference. Do you not understand such a basic difference? It's like me saying that because you seem to dislike our government that you're overthrowing it.

A suspect is innocent until proven guilty, remember?

Immaterial. That is a standard for those who have to determine a persons guilt or innocence, not the general public. As Americans we're allowed to have our opinions without the nanny state stepping in to tell us what we can or cannot say, unlike you Europeans who can't even state the obvious without being threatened with jail for their troubles.

Oh and I still think OJ did it.

To most Europeans I know the US reaction on Assange an Manning seems awfully much like it.

Yeah well Europeans have been misunderstanding us and prognosticating our doom for over 200 years. Y'all ain't been right yet.

A 1 minute google search shows at least these two things.

Hopefully that's not the best you can do! "OMG we collected data on the UN leadership and tried to curry favor by giving aid! Tear down the Statue of Liberty. We are so chagrined!"

I'm pretty sure there's much more out there (remember that a massive majority of documents hasn't even been released yet) but really don't want to spend more time searching for things the US has done wrong.

No you'd rather make some serious allegations and then not provide any real proof to back them up.