German police arrest 22 in neo-Nazi internet raid

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Glad you say it yourself.
The war had nothing to do with the Jews. Nothing at all. Now we've finally reached this point, can I stop trying to tell you the obvious?

And what is your POINT? What are you trying to say by "nothing to do" and "Nothing at all".

Hitler was backed up with mass hysteria love until wehrmacht got its ass kicked on eastern front or until his generals realised that the guy lost grip with reality and pushed too hard.

Is that why he didn't have to ban any political opposition from the outset, set up a police state and put opponents into concentration camps years before the war started then?
I suppose it explains the complete lack of the many planned assasination attempts like those which certainly didn't have members of the german military aiming to kill Hitler in 1938 when Germany was still many years away from getting its butt kicked by the Russians on the Eastern front.

When you done talking to yourself give me a shout . I am going to listen to a song called "Fuhrer face"

I am going to listen to a song called "Fuhrer face"

Is that a popular song with flag waving nationalists?
How is the quest for living space coming along?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Is that why he didn't have to ban any political opposition from the outset, set up a police state and put opponents into concentration camps years before the war started then?
I suppose it explains the complete lack of the many planned assasination attempts like those which certainly didn't have members of the german military aiming to kill Hitler in 1938 when Germany was still many years away from getting its butt kicked by the Russians on the Eastern front.

So you say that Hitler wasnt surrounded by mass hysteria love from Germans he did not march into Austria as a great leader of German race?

He had opposition but he also had won most of average Germans.to his side which was his first priority before making any moves.
He knew that by tyrany alone he could not realise his plans for europe.
I never said that all Germans where Nazis but trying to paint that generation as a poor bastrds under iron foot is totally wrong.
Maybe a German did not like seeinig a Jew getting kick around but when he got his flat handed over well...why not-hard times and human nature,.Hail Hitler it is.

So you say that Hitler wasnt surrounded by mass hysteria love from Germans he did not march into Austria as a great leader of German race?

Did I?
Oh of course thats what I said as is demonstrated by me not saying it.

He had opposition but he also had won most of average Germans.to his side which was his first priority before making any moves.

If he had most germans before he started making moves then why was he making moves as soon as he got a minority of the vote?

extermination were probably rejected by a majority of Germans. They apparently wanted to restrict Jewish rights substantially, but not to annihilate Jews.

Wrong!! It was accepted by the influence of your nationalistic party. All evidence are there. Including all non Germans in the process. I can give you an example of how Hitler minions treated war prisoners.... injection, gas, experiments... you name it. So you see, facts are facts. Nothing you can do about it .

[the_tyrant]

Who ever controls the past control the future, whoever controls the presant controls the past

I think(not sure) that german kids at the time were fed propaganda films about how jews are bad
its not that they are evil, its just their education

[Task Force]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

I think(not sure) that german kids at the time were fed propaganda films about how jews are bad
its not that they are evil, its just their education

Yep, The germans used alot of propaganda to get their way, which also helped get them to want to be into the hitler youth, and in the end of the war, the children armys.

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

I think(not sure) that german kids at the time were fed propaganda films about how jews are bad
its not that they are evil, its just their education

So the persecution did exist, they were no convertions in the end.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Did I?

If he had most germans before he started making moves then why was he making moves as soon as he got a minority of the vote?

Because he had everyone he needed in his pocket.
The ones he did not have joined him later.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Dimitrius07

Are you going to answer my question or not?

You're talking to me? I thought your question wasn't too hard to answer yourself:

Originally Posted by Dimitrius07

And what is your POINT? What are you trying to say by "nothing to do" and "Nothing at all".

but if you don't get it, let me help you.
Hitler didn't start a war to exterminate Jews. He could have done that without a war. Hitler started the war for a number of reasons, "Lebensraum" being one of them, Jews being none of them.

Originally Posted by DarkFish

You're talking to me? I thought your question wasn't too hard to answer yourself:
but if you don't get it, let me help you.
Hitler didn't start a war to exterminate Jews. He could have done that without a war. Hitler started the war for a number of reasons, "Lebensraum" being one of them, Jews being none of them.

So you jump from "Nazi Germany is not so bad" to my nationality again. I am not sure you following me, but whatever.
Also how this is posible:

Hitler didn't start a war to exterminate Jews. He could have done that without a war.

I rest my case on this one .

[Skybird]

In Wikipedia's entry on Denazification, I found an interesting passage that may highlight why simplifying things the way Dimitrius and Tater are doing it, most likely is no adequate description of the true realities back then.
Even those believing in Nazism, most likely did so for a variety of motives and believes, motivated by different understandings of what it was and what was done in the name of it. That'S why I differenciate - like I also do in case of Islam - between the real content of the fixed-on-paper ideology, and the huge variety of different understandings of what the term means, sometimes in conformity, sometimes in violation, sometimes in reduction or misunderstanding of the conception that is behind the term identifying the ideology.

Again, all this is not in excuse of true Nazis and war criminals, of course. Again, Nazism is an evil, inhumane ideology, and the more a person fully submits to it in full knowledge and awareness of it's facts, the more guilty this person becomes.

Surveys





The U.S. conducted opinion surveys in occupied Germany. Tony Judt in his book Postwar : a History of Europe since 1945 extracted and used some of them.[34]

• A majority in the years 1945-49 stated National Socialism to have been a good idea, badly applied.
• In 1946, 6% of Germans said the Nuremberg trials had been unfair.
• In 1946, 37% in the U.S. occupation zone said about the Holocaust that "the extermination of the Jews and Poles and other non-Aryans was necessary for the security of Germans."
• In 1946, 1 in 3 in the U.S. occupation zone said that Jews should not have the same rights as those belonging to the Aryan race.
• In 1950, 1 in 3 said the Nuremberg trials had been unfair.
• In 1952, 37% said Germany was better off without the Jews.
• In 1952, 25% had a good opinion of Hitler.

However, in Hitler, Germans, and the 'Jewish Question,' Sarah Ann Gordon notes the difficulty of drawing conclusions from the surveys. For example, respondents were given three alternatives from which to choose, as in question 1:
StatementPercentage agreeingHitler was right in his treatment of the Jews:0%Hitler went too far in his treatment of the Jews, but something had to be done to keep them in bounds:19%The actions against the Jews were in no way justified:77%
To the question of whether an Aryan who marries a Jew should be condemned, 91% responded "No". To the question of whether "All those who ordered the murder of civilians or participated in the murdering should be made to stand trial," 94% responded "Yes".[35] Gordon singles out the question "Extermination of the Jews and Poles and other non-Aryans was not necessary for the security of the Germans", which included an implicit double negative to which the response was either yes or no. She concludes that this question was confusingly phrased:

Some interviewees may have responded "no" they did not agree with the statement, when they actually did agree that the extermination was not necessary.[36]

She further highlights the discrepancy between the antisemitic implications of the survey results (such as those later identified by Judt) with the 77% percent of interviewees who responded that actions against Jews were in no way justified.[36].

Gordon states that if the 77 percent result is to be believed then an "overwhelming majority" of Germans disapproved of extermination, and if the 37 percent result is believed to be correct then over one third of Germans were willing to exterminate Poles and Jews and others for German security[36]. She concludes that the phrasing of the question on German security lowers the confidence in the later interpretation.[36].
Gordon follows this with another survey where interviewees were asked if Nazism was good or bad (53% chose bad) and reasons for their answer. Among the nine possible choices on why it was bad, 21% chose the effects on the German people before the war, while 3-4 percent chose the answer "race policy, atrocities, pogroms"[36] However, Gordon highlight the issue that it is difficult to pin-down at which point in time respondents became aware of the exterminations, before or after they were interviewed. e.g. questionaire reports indicate that a sinificant minority had no knowledge until the Nuremberg trials. She also notes that when confronted with the exterminations there was an element of denial, disbelief, and confusion. Asked about concentration camps, very few Germans associated them with the jews, leading to the conclusion that they did not understand how they had been used against the Jews during the war and instead continued to think of them as they were before the war, the place where political opponents to the Nazis were kept. "This naivete is only understandable if large numbers of Germans were truly ignorant of the existance of these camps".[37] A British study on the same attitudes concluded that

"Those who said National Socialism was a good idea pointed to social welfare plans, the lack of unemployment, the great construction plans of the Nazis....Nearly all those who thought it a good idea nevertheless rejected Nazi racial theories and disagreed with the inhumanity of the concentration camps and the 'SS'.[37]

Sarah Gordon writes that a majority of Germans appeared to approve of nonviolent removal of Jews from civil service and professions and German life.[36]. The German public also accepted the Nuremberg laws because they thought they would act as stabilizers and end violence against Jews.[37] The German public had as a result of the Nazi antisemitic propaganda hardened their attitudes between 1935 and 1938 from the originally fairly favorable. By 1938 the propaganda had had effect and antisemitic policies were accepted, provided no violence was involved.[37] The Kristallnacht caused German opposition to antisemitism to peak, with the vast majority of Germans rejecting the violence and destruction, and many Germans aiding the jews.[37] The Nazis responded by intimidation in order to discourage oposition, those aiding jews were victims of large scale arrests and intimidation.[37] With the start of the war the anti semitic minority that approved of restrictions on Jewish domestic activities was growing, but there is no evidence that the general public had any acceptance for labor camps or extermination.[37] And as the number of antisemites grew, so too did the number of Germans opposed to racial persecution, and rumors of deportations and shootings in the east led to snowballing critizism of the Nazis. Gordon states that "one can probably conclude that labor camps, concentration camps, and extermination were opposed by a majority of Germans."[37]
Gordon concludes her analysis on German public opinion based German SD-reports during the war and the Allied questionnaires during the occupation, with:

..it would appear that a majority of Germans supported elimination of Jews from the civil service; quotas on Jews in professions, academic institutions, and commercial fields; restrictions on intermarriage; and voluntary emigration of Jews. However, the rabid antisemites' demands for violent boycotts, illegal expropriation, destruction of Jewish property, pogroms, deportation, and extermination were probably rejected by a majority of Germans. They apparently wanted to restrict Jewish rights substantially, but not to annihilate Jews.[37]

In Wikipedia's entry on Denazification, I found an interesting passage that may highlight why simplifying things the way Dimitrius and Tater are doing it,

Sorry Skybird but you wrong! I don`t need Wikipedia to defend my position againts people who don`t like the some of the historycal facts. In deep i feel like someone is really bored here or something