New 'forgiving' fatigue model

[Kafka BC]

Originally Posted by sub_optimal

Ah, I think I see where we're talking at cross purposes...

I see that now, after looking through the handbook again and doing a quick google. I mistook Lifebuoy Sentry as civilian (ie. Cruise Ships and such) and Lifebuoy Watch as Navy. It appears that the terms are interchangeable.

I stand corrected.

I see you are from Toronto, were you in the Navy Reserve there?

PS. I heartily agree with Hitman. There it always a need for something new with a different perspective for people to try. Evidence all the different GUI and Environmental Mods that are floating around here. You might want to look at NGYM's fatigue model, I haven't tried it yet, but I read somewhere that it models efficiency over the length of a patrol.

- Kafka BC

[Jimbuna]

Good luck in your endeavours sub_optimal, I echo Hitmans applause and best wishes

[sub_optimal]

Originally Posted by Kafka BC

I see you are from Toronto, were you in the Navy Reserve there?

Ha ha, no, my last official naval experience was as coxwain of my sea cadet corps many long years ago. We used to go out in YAG's and, one memorable summer, on repurposed lobster boats (being, under naval supervision, the cleanest lobster boats on Earth).

Since then I've been studying as a naval historian, and have spent some time academically observing (and occasionally teaching) militaries of various Western countries. Actually, I don't know very much about U-boats at all. I've always shied away from the Second World War as being too full of people who actually know that they're talking about and can show me up for the fraud that I am. Currently I'm working on questions of naval intelligence and institutional structure in the postwar period.

[sub_optimal]

Back on topic, though, does anybody know an easy way to access NGYM's fatigue model?

[Kafka BC]

Originally Posted by sub_optimal

Back on topic, though, does anybody know an easy way to access NGYM's fatigue model?

I think all you need is the basic.cfg file. I've extracted it uploaded it to Mediafire for you here. It is from the NYGM3.3B patch from a year ago. The 3.3C patch didn't have it, So I think its the latest one. If something more is needed, maybe somebody in the know can get it for you.

...the cleanest lobster boats on Earth.

Living in a fishing village (Eastern Passage) that is now part of Halifax, I can tell you that is no mean feat.

Since then I've been studying as a naval historian, and have spent some time academically observing (and occasionally teaching) militaries of various Western countries.

Then, perhaps you know of this character. I've followed him since the '70s when he used to publish my eagerly awaited Strategy and Tactics magazine and great wargames. He is now a Military Analyst and lecturer, and on occasion appears on CNN.

...and can show me up for the fraud that I am.

You probably have more creds than a lot of them.

And here is my shameless attempt at Naval History education.

- Kafka BC

[sub_optimal]

Thanks Kafka, that's great.

These values seem very interesting, and quite different from what I would have thought of myself, although they've clearly been thought through with great depth. For example, some of the SpecificFactor values seem really... well specific: For compartment 5, the value is 0.027225. I'd really like to understand where that number comes from. Also, unless I'm reading this wrong, there's no weather modification whatsoever, which seems strange.

Any comments?

[Stiebler]

@Sub_Optimal:

Hitman is correct, Observer was a real-life American ex-submariner. He departed from this forum about three years ago.

Observer spent a very long time with mathematical modelling/balancing of the various compartments for fatigue - and also for morale - which is why some of the figures look so precise.

I found after much experience that the morale figures were crippling any U-boat that went on an extremely long cruise, such as an IXd2 to the Indian Ocean and back to France. Similarly, very long schnorchel patrols in 1945 during stormy weather around the British coast were crippling the engine-room crew. For this reason, I toned down the effects of morale a lot, but retained the fatigue components.

I have no knowledge of the effect of weather patterns, I don't remember seeing any separate crew fatigue components for weather that could be adjusted.

Good luck, anyway,
Stiebler.

[Volk2]

What sections in basic.cfg are responsible for fatigue model? I'm playing from a long time with no fatigue, but maybe NYGM model would be good. I wish to try to copy it to GWX basic.cfg. Certainly its the sections [CREW_0]-[CREW_8]. What else? [COMPARTMENT]?

[sub_optimal]

Originally Posted by Stiebler

Observer spent a very long time with mathematical modelling/balancing of the various compartments for fatigue - and also for morale - which is why some of the figures look so precise

Very intersting. Does anybody know where morale is configured?

Originally Posted by Stiebler

I found after much experience that the morale figures were crippling any U-boat that went on an extremely long cruise, such as an IXd2 to the Indian Ocean and back to France.

That's an excelent point. Perhaps one sollution would be to have several different fatigue models to balance realism and playability in different conditions. An 'early war' and 'late war' war model might be an example, or different models for different classes (which would seem to make intuative sense anyway).

Does anybody know whether a schnorcheing sub is counted as 'surfaced' or 'submerged'?

[sub_optimal]

Originally Posted by Kafka BC

And here is my shameless attempt at Naval History education.

How very appropriately shameless, given that it reflects only credit upon you!

[Kafka BC]

Originally Posted by sub_optimal

How very appropriately shameless, given that it reflects only credit upon you!

Thanks. Wasn't looking for any, but was trying to give it to the boys of the Royal Canadian Navy Volunteer Reserve, the Naval Reservists, and the good officers that commanded them.

[LGN1]

Hi,

a while ago I made a long-term fatigue model for myself. From reading old threads (thanks to all who investigated this earlier!), experimenting,... I found out the following things:

In basic.cfg every rank has this section

[CREW_0] ;SEAMAN
MoraleMin=0.30 <--- value below which morale cannot drop (see comment below)
MoraleMax=0.60 <--- value above which morale cannot rise
MoraleStep=0.05 <--- amount by which morale is increased in the crew comp. every 10 min.
FatigueMin=0 <--- value below which fatigue cannot drop
FatigueMax=0.80 <--- value above which fatigue cannot rise
FatigueStep=0.031 <--- amount by which fatigue is reduced in the crew comp. every 10 min.
CoefMorale=0.4 <--- see formula below
CoefFatigue=0.21 <--- see formula below
QualEffect=1 <--- see formula below
Hp=10
Wounded=-0.02 <--- amount by which morale is reduced if someone is wounded in the compartment
Dead=-0.05 <--- amount by which morale is reduced if someone dies in the compartment
SunkShips=0.1 <--- amount by which morale increases if a ship is sunk
TorpedoHit=0.05 <--- broken, does nothing
Experience=0

Now the question is how do these values influence the efficiency in a compartment. The answer is (assuming all men are healthy, never tested wounded men):

Efficiency = (M*(1-c_m)+c_m)*(F*(c_f-1)+1)

M: morale of crew member
c_m: CoefMorale in basic.cfg
F: fatigue of crew member
c_f: CoefFatigue in basic.cfg

The total efficiency is the sum of all the efficiencies of the crew members in the compartment. For petty officers the efficiency is multiplied with the QualEffect factor from basic.cfg (if they have the qualification corresponding to the compartment). For officers the total efficiency in the compartment is multiplied by QualEffect. Thus, having an officer with the right qualification is most important.

Ok, now we need to know how efficiency influences the different tasks. This is where my knowledge is limited. Here is what I think. We have several tasks: Repairs, torpedo reload, steering commands, sensor work.

Repair times: Repair time is given by (this is without a repair team, i.e. only the crew in the compartment is doing the repairs. I think you need at least two men in the compartment.)

T = Tfix(depends on damage amount)*Interval3/Eff,
Tfix: hardcoded 'basic' time
Eff: efficiency in compartment (formula above)
Interval3: specified for each compartment in basic.cfg
Interval1 and Interval2 seem to have no influence


Torpedo reload time:
T = Tfix*factor
Tfix: 'basic' time in sim file
factor=1 for efficiency in compartment >= Interval3
factor=3/2 for Interval2 < efficiency in compartment < Interval3
factor=3 for Interval1 < efficiency in compartment < Interval2
infinity for efficiency in compartment < Interval1 (i.e., no reloading)

I did not notice any influence of efficiency on giving commands. I also do not know for sure how efficiency influences the sensors. It seems that the Interval values have no influence. So, I guess a continuous scale is used (as with repair times, not as in the case of torpedo reloading). Engines will not work if efficiency in compartment < Interval1. It seems the other Intervals have no influence.

Finally, basic.cfg contains the [FATIGUE_COEF] values for each compartment:

RegularFactor50=0.001 <--- amount by which fatigue is decreased when a crew member is moved into the compartment
RegularFactor51=0.001 <--- unknown. No idea.
SpecificFactor50=0.045 <--- amount by which fatigue decreases every 10 min. when the sub is surfaced
SpecificFactor51=0.045 <--- amount by which fatigue decreases every 10 min. when the sub is submerged
BadWeather5=0.02 <--- amount by which fatigue is decreased in bad weather (I'm not sure whether it's added to RegularFactor or used without it. But this can be easily checked.)

That's how I think it works. If someone has more information or thinks something is wrong I would love to know it. Especially, it would be great to know more about how sensors are influenced by the efficiency.

Cheers, LGN1

PS: One has to be careful when playing with MoraleStep. If you make it negative the morale can become negative because it is not stopped by MoraleMin. IIRC, you can also get negative fatigue if you choose some strange settings.