Dumbest military weapons

[Tchocky]

Or the favourite "done shot off my own tail, bugger it!"

[CCIP]

Oh, now the T-35 definitely deserves a vote there. As do most multi-turreted tanks

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Oh, now the T-35 definitely deserves a vote there. As do most multi-turreted tanks

I like that you added the MOST there because...


Hay we got a tank with three weapon turrets... it only took 70 years to get right!

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

What you are saying essencially is research and development was non-existent?

Well erm, yeah....something like that

[Takeda Shingen]

Ah, the Davey Crockett. If Fallout 3 has taught me anything, it is that shoulder-launched nuclear weaopns are awesome.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Ah, the Davey Crockett. If Fallout 3 has taught me anything, it is that shoulder-launched nuclear weaopns are awesome.

no self respecting home owner should be without one ...

[Bilge_Rat]

another example of poor design was the F-4 Phantom, not the plane itself, which was used by USAF and USN and featured a great design, but the fact that it was designed with no internal gun since designers were convinced that air-to-air missiles had rendered guns obsolete.

That sounded great until Vietnam came along and it turned out the AIM-7 and AIM-9 missiles the F-4 carried had been designed to track big, slow moving bombers and were almost useless against fast turning north vietnamese fighters..

needless to say, every US fighter since then carries an internal gun.

of course, it was'nt just the US, the Russians and the French made the same mistake. It was just the Israelis who insisted on having a gun and had the french instal a 30mm cannon in the Mirages they bought. They were put to good use in the six-day war...

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

another example of poor design was the F-4 Phantom, not the plane itself, which was used by USAF and USN and featured a great design, but the fact that it was designed with no internal gun since designers were convinced that air-to-air missiles had rendered guns obsolete.

That sounded great until Vietnam came along and it turned out the AIM-7 and AIM-9 missiles the F-4 carried had been designed to track big, slow moving bombers and were almost useless against fast turning north vietnamese fighters..

needless to say, every US fighter since then carries an internal gun.

of course, it was'nt just the US, the Russians and the French made the same mistake. It was just the Israelis who insisted on having a gun and had the french instal a 30mm cannon in the Mirages they bought. They were put to good use in the six-day war...

Interestingly the F-8 Crusader (AKA the "Last of the Gunfighters") only scored three kills (some say four) with cannons. The F-8 had the best kill ratio of the Vietnam war (19 to 3)

BTW the F-35B and F-35C will not have an internal gun.

[Oberon]

The Erdnagel could possibly take its place up there...but it's hard to tell whether it was more the public perception over the aircraft as opposed to the actual design.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

my issue with the Defiant is not so much the turret as the fact that it had no forward firing guns, so could only engage bombers from its sides and was useless against fighters.

Almost every plane designed at that time, even light bombers like the SBD, VAL or IL-2 had forward firing guns.

It was a carry over from the Bristol fighters from the First World War...yeah, we did a lot of carry overs from the First World War, some worked and some didn't. The Defiant did work initially, she had a reasonable kill ratio in the Battle of France, knocking down six 109s for three Defiants in one battle and then some nineteen Stukas, nine 110s, eight 109s and a Ju-88 over two sortees with the loss of one Defiant gunner after he bailed out but the aircraft itself made it back to base.
However, then the Luftwaffe recognised the Defiants weaknesses and stopped engaging it from the rear, and the new Defiant pilots refused to follow the strategy adapted by 264 Squadron of flying a tight Lufberry circle (like the 110s did when they were attacked by our fighters) they would sacrifice speed and height but gain a 360 degree coverage on the turret guns, thus combining the firepower of the aircraft in the Lufberry to bring down an aircraft which tried to approach from behind or got into the arc of fire.
Of course, ultimately she wasn't right for the job, like the Ju-87 and Me-110 as the Luftwaffe would find out during the course of the battle, and she was transferred to Night fighter duties and used as an experimental aircraft for ECMs and jamming against the German radar network until the Beaufighters took over the role in '43, and she did quite a good job as a night fighter but technology overtook her and that was that.
I wouldn't have said the Defiant was dumb...just tactically outdated, like a great deal of British equipment at the beginning of World War Two.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

BTW the F-35B and F-35C will not have an internal gun.

that is surprising. One of the reasons pilots like guns on their planes, now that missiles are more reliable, is to be able to protect a downed pilot on the ground from enemy forces while waiting for rescue. Can't do that with AAM missiles.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Oberon

The Erdnagel could possibly take its place up there...but it's hard to tell whether it was more the public perception over the aircraft as opposed to the actual design.

Erdnagle? Is that the Starfighter Obie?

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

that is surprising. One of the reasons pilots like guns on their planes, now that missiles are more reliable, is to be able to protect a downed pilot on the ground from enemy forces while waiting for rescue. Can't do that with AAM missiles.

Won't have to worry about pilots very long...

They can still carry a gun in an external pod but I heard they are thinking about sticking a laser in the space normally reserved for the lift fan- unneeded on the USAF and USN JSFs. Speaking of lasers if they put more funds in to the ABM laser on the 747 I could see that dooming the manned fighter quite quick- think AWACS with a thousand mile ranged death ray...

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Erdnagle? Is that the Starfighter Obie?

The tent peg, aye.

Like all aircraft though, I guess it was a case of knowing how to handle it, and some are more forgiving than others...the Tent peg was not very forgiving...

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

The Germans put a upwards firing gun on a twin engine fighter that proved effective against allied bombers (RAF in particular since they lacked a bottom gun turret IIRC). I'm not sure about the maximum elevation of the guns on the Defiant but an attack from an unusual angle could be a nasty surprise.

This was done with specific fighter groups - known as the "Boar" groups. There were two sets - the "Tame Boars" who answered to ground controllers for vectoring, and a smaller "Wild Boar" group that was given free range.

The weapon was known in English as "Jazz Music" - though properly translated was actually "Slanted Music". If memory serves me - it was a 37mm cannon - but it may have been a 20mm instead.

I am curious TLAM - where did you hear of this? I have only seen it in one source - The Air War in Europe (Time Life Books).

[TLAM Strike]

z

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

This was done with specific fighter groups - known as the "Boar" groups. There were two sets - the "Tame Boars" who answered to ground controllers for vectoring, and a smaller "Wild Boar" group that was given free range.

The weapon was known in English as "Jazz Music" - though properly translated was actually "Slanted Music". If memory serves me - it was a 37mm cannon - but it may have been a 20mm instead.

I am curious TLAM - where did you hear of this? I have only seen it in one source - The Air War in Europe (Time Life Books).

Read about it in a book I have called "The Encyclopedia of 20th Century Air Warfare. According to the book the Junkers Ju 88G-6b had "Schrage Musik" upwards 20mm MG151 cannons. They mention this one guy: Maj. Heinz-Wolfgang Schnauffer shot down seven Lancasters in 17 minutes with a Schrage Musik equipped Heinkel He 219.