Dumbest military weapons

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

The Germans put a upwards firing gun on a twin engine fighter that proved effective against allied bombers (RAF in particular since they lacked a bottom gun turret IIRC). I'm not sure about the maximum elevation of the guns on the Defiant but an attack from an unusual angle could be a nasty surprise.

This was done with specific fighter groups - known as the "Boar" groups. There were two sets - the "Tame Boars" who answered to ground controllers for vectoring, and a smaller "Wild Boar" group that was given free range.

The weapon was known in English as "Jazz Music" - though properly translated was actually "Slanted Music". If memory serves me - it was a 37mm cannon - but it may have been a 20mm instead.

I am curious TLAM - where did you hear of this? I have only seen it in one source - The Air War in Europe (Time Life Books).

[TLAM Strike]

z

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

This was done with specific fighter groups - known as the "Boar" groups. There were two sets - the "Tame Boars" who answered to ground controllers for vectoring, and a smaller "Wild Boar" group that was given free range.

The weapon was known in English as "Jazz Music" - though properly translated was actually "Slanted Music". If memory serves me - it was a 37mm cannon - but it may have been a 20mm instead.

I am curious TLAM - where did you hear of this? I have only seen it in one source - The Air War in Europe (Time Life Books).

Read about it in a book I have called "The Encyclopedia of 20th Century Air Warfare. According to the book the Junkers Ju 88G-6b had "Schrage Musik" upwards 20mm MG151 cannons. They mention this one guy: Maj. Heinz-Wolfgang Schnauffer shot down seven Lancasters in 17 minutes with a Schrage Musik equipped Heinkel He 219.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

With this being a subsim board, I am suprised that nobody has made a comment of the effective range of a Subroc vs the Lethal radius of said weapon.

Nothing like a 2 for 1 weapon.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke

With this being a subsim board, I am suprised that nobody has made a comment of the effective range of a Subroc vs the Lethal radius of said weapon.

Nothing like a 2 for 1 weapon.

The SUBROC had a range of 30 miles, the effect of the 5 kt warhead would only be dangrous out to about a mile from ground zero. The 11 kt warhead of the ASTOR torpedo (8 mile range) would be dangerous about a mile and a half from the blast. The ASTOR would shake the launching sub up a bit but not sink her, plus she could clear datum and get away from the blast.

[Gerald]

JAS 39 Gripen aircraft (two seater) Length: 14.1 m (14.8 m) Height: 4.5 m Span: 8.4 m Wheelbase: 5.2 m (5.9 m) Track width: 2.4 m Empty weight : 6500 kg (7000 kg) Starting weight: ~ 8700 kg (8500 kg) Max takeoff weight: ~ 12 500 kg (12 800 kg) Engine: RM 12 Thrust: 54 kN thrust with EBK: 81 kN (equiv. ~ 40 000 hp) Engine: Volvo Aero RM 12 (a development of the F404-400 from General Electric) Max speed: Mach 2 (about 2 500km / h) Armament: Rb74, Rb99, Rb75, Rb15, Bomb Capsule 90 and 27 mm Akan (only Version A and C) Range:> 3 000 km off distance: 400 m Landing distance: 500 m Number of FM: 204st (of which 28 pc two seater) in service since: June 9, 1996 Acceleration: Mach 0.5 to 1.15 in 30's . Turn Force: Up to 9G Radar: Ericsson PS-05 / A. Detects fighter at 120 km distance.
Manufacturer: Industrial Group JAS

[CCIP]

What's so bad about the Gripen?


And on the topic of subs, I'm pretty sure the dumbest submarine designs yet were those which attempted to use the subs as a big gun platform, including the British M class and the French Surcouf. Had the Germans actually built the Type XI cruisers, I'm pretty sure they would've ended up in the same category. Not to be bloodthirsty, but I kind of wish one of those subs had actually participated in actual combat - it would've shown exactly what a terrible idea the whole concept was (by inevitably failing horribly and being sunk), and would end for good all the myths and misconceptions about surface-gunning supersubs.

[Gerald]

It is a good plan for sure

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

The SUBROC had a range of 30 miles, the effect of the 5 kt warhead would only be dangerous out to about a mile from ground zero. The 11 kt warhead of the ASTOR torpedo (8 mile range) would be dangerous about a mile and a half from the blast. The ASTOR would shake the launching sub up a bit but not sink her, plus she could clear datum and get away from the blast.

Thank you.. I forgot about the ASTOR. Yet ANOTHER great design in the use of atomic weapontry. You had to hold position, maintain positive control of the weapon, and had to signal detonate the warhead. Like the other guy was not going to shoot at you in the meantime. The only thing I liked about it was that it was electric so it was not quite as noisy.

About the lethal radius, in a typical air burst you are correct, however, in a subsurface burst, the shock wave would have resulted in an overpressure wave that would have crushed a submarine. That was one of the design criteria of the thing. You did not have to land on the bad guy, you only had to get close. You get it in the general area, detonate it deep, and let the water hammer do the rest for you.

I remember reading about the SUBROC on the boat. They said that a 688 MIGHT be able to survive a max range attack if they did a 180, STOOD on the power and had a minimal cross section while at the same time going shallow rapidly just prior to detonation. Going shallow was to minimize the effect of the shock wave by decreasing the intial pressure on the hull. The variables involved were many and they did not give more than a 50/50 chance.

The older sailors who served on the 594/637 class boats said that they knew it was a suicide shot. They KNEW they could not go fast enough to get out of the danger zone. But, they were willing to take it if it would prevent the other guy from launching his missles.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke

Thank you.. I forgot about the ASTOR. Yet ANOTHER great design in the use of atomic weapontry. You had to hold position, maintain positive control of the weapon, and had to signal detonate the warhead. Like the other guy was not going to shoot at you in the meantime. The only thing I liked about it was that it was electric so it was not quite as noisy.

About the lethal radius, in a typical air burst you are correct, however, in a subsurface burst, the shock wave would have resulted in an overpressure wave that would have crushed a submarine. That was one of the design criteria of the thing. You did not have to land on the bad guy, you only had to get close. You get it in the general area, detonate it deep, and let the water hammer do the rest for you.

I remember reading about the SUBROC on the boat. They said that a 688 MIGHT be able to survive a max range attack if they did a 180, STOOD on the power and had a minimal cross section while at the same time going shallow rapidly just prior to detonation. Going shallow was to minimize the effect of the shock wave by decreasing the intial pressure on the hull. The variables involved were many and they did not give more than a 50/50 chance.

The older sailors who served on the 594/637 class boats said that they knew it was a suicide shot. They KNEW they could not go fast enough to get out of the danger zone. But, they were willing to take it if it would prevent the other guy from launching his missles.

Interesting factoid:

The USS Dentuda SS-335 survived a ~20 kt subsurface nuclear blast while dived at a range of about 1250 yards. This is Test Baker during Operation Crossroads.

Following the test she was returned to service for a while before being scrapped.