Former SH5 Producer Alexandru Gris talks about Software-Quality - Page 5

McBeck · 08-31-10, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Méo

We could argue for months to come on who to blame, but it's gonna be useless & endless.

Completely agree

JU_88 · 08-31-10, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Méo

We could argue for months to come on who to blame, but it's gonna be useless & endless.

Also agree whats done is done, shouting and pointing the finger wont get us anywhere.

@Makman94
Im not going to demonise you or call you a 'bad guy' In fact i can understand your frustration and you are just speaking your mind.

But I personally dont agree with your approach, You tell Dan and his team that: 'if they really care, then they will work on the game in their free time' (like TDW or a mod team)
But a mod team works on somthing because, A) they have time, B) they really want to because they enjoy it.
Sure for the team its a bit different because its actually 'their' game, but its also 'their' life and 'their' time.

Putting time and energy into modding is not just about where or not you care, there are other factors to consider. For instance we dont know what the devs have going on in there personal lives? and its none of our damn business either.

On top of that I agree with Mbeck, you cant ignore what has been attempted behind the scenes, it is unfair to judge without knowing the full story.

So In my eyes your expectations are not very reasonable and your... 'emotional blackmail' if you wil -l is not the best way to convince someone to do something out of goodwill either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elanaiba

maybe for some of us enough is enough.

Hardly suprising, when you consider he has been working on the SH franchise for the past 8 years of his life.

Arclight · 08-31-10, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBeck

You cant just ignore what happens behind the scenes when you judge a person.

I think you should consider that getting the fixes in place that you mention (which are very valid) is outside the influence of Dan. Can it be the case that Dan have already pointed out these errors? Do you honestly think that its Dans choice to use DRM? The devs have used a lot of their spare time in the mods forums to help out - what does that tell you? Could it be that they care about the game? Could it be that its not their choice when to release a game and make the decision when its ready for release? The list goes on...

I think it takes a lot of guts to come here and be a part of these discussions and to admit to their part in the state of the game.

Don't know why it still has to be said, but this. Exactly this.

It's like blaming the delivery guy for a burned pizza.

Zedi · 08-31-10, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arclight

Don't know why it still has to be said, but this. Exactly this.

It's like blaming the delivery guy for a burned pizza.

Nobody blame him for anything, is just a reply on his post. There is no namecalling as is the whole team/company fault, not individuals. Dan sometimes likes to speak in the name of the whole team.. not sure why... so ofc he gets the hits. Similar to Sorlim who got all the hate, even he had nothing to do with the developement.. but it was enough to be a Ubi employee :P

makman94 · 08-31-10, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBeck

You cant just ignore what happens behind the scenes when you judge a person.-----i didn't judge ANYONE ! i judge only the final product which is ,in this case, the sh5 .i am pointing my words to Dan becuase it happens to be the leader manager of sh5 . i have nothing to say for the personality of Dan becuase i ,also like you, believe that Dan is a great guy !

I think you should consider that getting the fixes in place that you mention (which are very valid) is outside the influence of Dan.----are they? Can it be the case that Dan have already pointed out these errors?----do you believe that Dan asked these things to be corrected and it didn't happened? Do you honestly think that its Dans choice to use DRM?----never said anything about drm.i ,personally, don't believe that this is a sh5's problem at all ! The devs have used a lot of their spare time in the mods forums to help out - what does that tell you? Could it be that they care about the game?----no ,it doesn't show that they care...giving SOME 'tips' here and there (basically through pms?-i don't know) is not solving problems.and why ...if this is their job?for me, 'care' means to give me solutions ...polished ...solutions. Could it be that its not their choice when to release a game and make the decision when its ready for release?----sure it is not their choice but still the final product has their sign on ! and where is your sign....there is your responsibility.
The list goes on...

I think it takes a lot of guts to come here and be a part of these discussions and to admit to their part in the state of the game.----yes ,it takes... guts to admit things but what is after this? ok ,we admited our faults.... what's then ? ...nothing? wouldn't be more fair ,for the people that paid for it , to start correcting the admited faults?

look above at blue letters

makman94 · 08-31-10, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88

Also agree whats done is done, shouting and pointing the finger wont get us anywhere.

@Makman94
Im not going to demonise you or call you a 'bad guy' In fact i can understand your frustration and you are just speaking your mind.

But I personally dont agree with your approach, You tell Dan and his team that: 'if they really care, then they will work on the game in their free time' (like TDW or a mod team)
But a mod team works on somthing because, A) they have time, B) they really want to because they enjoy it.
Sure for the team its a bit different because its actually 'their' game, but its also 'their' life and 'their' time.

Putting time and energy into modding is not just about where or not you care, there are other factors to consider. For instance we dont know what the devs have going on in there personal lives? and its none of our damn business either.

On top of that I agree with Mbeck, you cant ignore what has been attempted behind the scenes, it is unfair to judge without knowing the full story.

So In my eyes your expectations are not very reasonable and your... 'emotional blackmail' if you wil -l is not the best way to convince someone to do something out of goodwill either.

Hardly suprising, when you consider he has been working on the SH franchise for the past 8 years of his life.

sorry JU ,but you got me all wrong ! i meant that if they really cared for sh5 ,as they are saying, then would have spent SOME of their free time to correct some things (although, i believe , that they HAVE and MUST correct ALL issues ).if you care for something ...you do something for it...

i know that free time is a BIG 'sacrifice' and all moders knows that very well ! (you ..too) . but ,i also, believe(or want to believe...) that devs LIKES what they are doing so giving some time of their free time is an indication that this game is not 'left' ONLY at the free time of moders...it is called ''here we are...you ....go ahead and here we are too '' or...something like that !

Arclight · 08-31-10, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnum

Nobody blame him for anything, is just a reply on his post. There is no namecalling as is the whole team/company fault, not individuals. Dan sometimes likes to speak in the name of the whole team.. not sure why... so ofc he gets the hits. Similar to Sorlim who got all the hate, even he had nothing to do with the developement.. but it was enough to be a Ubi employee :P

Did you really read the post you "agree 120%" with? Seems to me Dan is being targeted specifically.

At any rate, my biggest problem with the topic is that it's not Dan that decided to assign his team to some other project. That there are no patches in the works at the moment is not his or his team's fault.

And he wouldn't bother adressing these things or try to help if he didn't care.

John Channing · 08-31-10, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makman94

sorry JU ,but you got me all wrong ! i meant that if they really cared for sh5 ,as they are saying, then would have spent SOME of their free time to correct some things (although, i believe , that they HAVE and MUST correct ALL issues ).if you care for something ...you do something for it...

i know that free time is a BIG 'sacrifice' and all moders knows that very well ! (you ..too) . but ,i also, believe(or want to believe...) that devs LIKES what they are doing so giving some time of their free time is an indication that this game is not 'left' ONLY at the free time of moders...it is called ''here we are...you ....go ahead and here we are too '' or...something like that !

Are you under the impression that Dan is a programmer?

JCC

makman94 · 08-31-10, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Channing

Are you under the impression that Dan is a programmer?

JCC

i think that he is the project manager . he is the one that says the final 'ok' .that is what i believe ....but if i am wrong at this then ,again, someone else would be at this post.so ,my message goes to him

makman94 · 08-31-10, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arclight

.... Seems to me Dan is being targeted specifically.
.....

no, you are wrong at this Arclight ! Dan is not 'targeted' at all !

Arclight · 08-31-10, 10:49 AM

Held responsible then?

John Channing · 08-31-10, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makman94

i think that he is the project manager . he is the one that says the final 'ok' .that is what i believe ....but if i am wrong at this then ,again, someone else would be at this post.so ,my message goes to him

- Putting aside what you believe and trying to deal in what you know...

As a Project Manager whose team has been re-assigned to other projects what would you have him do in his "free time"?

JCC

Sonarman · 08-31-10, 11:43 AM

Perhaps we should invite comment from Alexandru upon whose blog this thread was originated, it is he I believe & not Dan who was Producer/Project manager and with him, I think rests the ultimate responsibility for Silent Hunter 5. Don't get me wrong I do not want to single anyone out and totally agree with Dan when he says it was a team effort, it would just be enlightening to know the forces that conspired to deliver the product in the state that it was delivered.

For me the real question though is not "who is to blame?" but "where do we go from here?"

janh · 08-31-10, 12:22 PM

This discussion is going quite far now... and at the same time it is actually leading nowhere.

Searching for faults isn't going to make a difference here. We are not talking about finding someone responsible for grounding an aircraft carrier here, SHV is but a game. Either it is a good one, or it ain't. You either bought it, or left it alone.

Now it turns out that it isn't exactly the advancement from SHIII that most fans hoped for, and it has some quality problems, that maybe even exceeded those of its predecessors. But few others really like it.
So complaining about it to a certain degree should be completely legit. As if you had bought a crappy book or movie. You can criticize it, rip it apart, and warn any of your friends and family not to try it. In the end you have to just accept that you just wasted some of your money. But you won't start to accuse the author or producer and ask him to start fixing the storyline!?? And that in his leisure time???

It is just a game! From one company out of many that makes simulations, and one out of many that has attempted to cover this topic, or that will ever tackle it. Sure, the SH series has brought a few highlights for it's time, as Silent Service I or Aces of the Deep were highlights of their periods. But there will be other games from the same or other companies that may be as good or even far greater -- for sure.

08-31-10, 12:39 PM

I agree totally, it's just a game.
I play it for what it is and I enjoy SH 3 and 4 just as much if not more. The people to blame for the state of SH5 are the people above Dan. I don't believe Dan would have released the game in the state it was personally because making games is a business and if the figures aren't matching the time it takes to develop then sacrifices are made.
Maybe Dan was to ambitious with the games features but I don't think that's something he should be criticised on.
I suppose he has to push the franchise on as it's to easy to just copy and paste with slightly better graphics.
I do hope a final fix everything patch does come, not for me but for the modders but I doubt it.
It's a pity GWX4 didn't get finished.

08-31-10, 10:49 AM	#71
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Held responsible then? __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

08-31-10, 11:43 AM	#73
Sonarman The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ayr,Scotland,UK Posts: 1,392 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 0	Perhaps we should invite comment from Alexandru upon whose blog this thread was originated, it is he I believe & not Dan who was Producer/Project manager and with him, I think rests the ultimate responsibility for Silent Hunter 5. Don't get me wrong I do not want to single anyone out and totally agree with Dan when he says it was a team effort, it would just be enlightening to know the forces that conspired to deliver the product in the state that it was delivered. For me the real question though is not "who is to blame?" but "where do we go from here?" __________________ "The action is simulated...the excitement is real!" Microprose Simulation Software. Last edited by Sonarman; 08-31-10 at 01:18 PM.

08-31-10, 12:22 PM	#74
janh Stinking drunk in Trinidad Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 349 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	This discussion is going quite far now... and at the same time it is actually leading nowhere. Searching for faults isn't going to make a difference here. We are not talking about finding someone responsible for grounding an aircraft carrier here, SHV is but a game. Either it is a good one, or it ain't. You either bought it, or left it alone. Now it turns out that it isn't exactly the advancement from SHIII that most fans hoped for, and it has some quality problems, that maybe even exceeded those of its predecessors. But few others really like it. So complaining about it to a certain degree should be completely legit. As if you had bought a crappy book or movie. You can criticize it, rip it apart, and warn any of your friends and family not to try it. In the end you have to just accept that you just wasted some of your money. But you won't start to accuse the author or producer and ask him to start fixing the storyline!?? And that in his leisure time??? It is just a game! From one company out of many that makes simulations, and one out of many that has attempted to cover this topic, or that will ever tackle it. Sure, the SH series has brought a few highlights for it's time, as Silent Service I or Aces of the Deep were highlights of their periods. But there will be other games from the same or other companies that may be as good or even far greater -- for sure. __________________ Scientific facts are not determined by the opinion of the majority, nor by a democratic vote.

08-31-10, 12:39 PM	#75
Barso Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I agree totally, it's just a game. I play it for what it is and I enjoy SH 3 and 4 just as much if not more. The people to blame for the state of SH5 are the people above Dan. I don't believe Dan would have released the game in the state it was personally because making games is a business and if the figures aren't matching the time it takes to develop then sacrifices are made. Maybe Dan was to ambitious with the games features but I don't think that's something he should be criticised on. I suppose he has to push the franchise on as it's to easy to just copy and paste with slightly better graphics. I do hope a final fix everything patch does come, not for me but for the modders but I doubt it. It's a pity GWX4 didn't get finished.