Church plans Qur'an burning - Page 3

Aramike · 08-01-10, 04:14 AM

Quote:

However, we still have Jesus' example to follow, and He would never condone the burning of religious texts, or any persecution for that matter. Our Lord and Saviour was above such things. Why stoop to violence and hatred when your message is so obviously superior?

The problem with that is that He was above a great many things which we as humans often find necessary. The divine would naturally be.

However, I don't consider a symbolic burning of texts to be "violence", nor do I consider the admonisment and disdain of evil to be "hatred".

Again, I don't condone what this church is doing. I see it as being unnecessarily inciteful. However, I don't see it as such a black and white issue, either.

Quote:

Even if there is no god, and the Bible is nothing but a lie, I take pride in trying to follow the example of a humble man who gave everything for the sake of the people who killed him.

It is the fact that such interpretations of the modern Christian faith are more common than not which makes me harbor great respect, even envy, for those who engage in it.

Skybird · 08-01-10, 04:16 AM

When Islamic societies start to worry about how they massively, shamelessly discriminate other beliefs and cultures and how they supress the display or the historic monuments of expression of such other cultures and even destroy them - then I will start to worry about burning the Quran.
Freedom is all nice and well, but it ashould be given to somebody else only if he does not use that freedom to destroy freedom. Building that mosque is a provocation and the orginsation behind that coup is directly linked to openly hostile Islamists of the most radical spectrum, as explained in the article I linked. It is a mocking of the victims - and many Americans and Westerners are even lame enough in their heads not to see it or not wanting to see it.
That some nevertheless are so pissed by the fact that the ideology that has caused, motivated and justified the 9/11 attacks now even is shameless enough to raise it's own ugly grinning face over the graves of the victims and to stageact a satire of itself being oh so innocent and even a victim of misunderstandings, is so rhich and underhanded that people feeling the urge to to "burn it" in a way is just a natural human reaction.

Brind down Islam - before it has completely brought down freedom, education and enlightenment. The damage already is big, the dark seed in the minds of peope already has been sown, it's presence in world media and global attention makes it the number 1 top item in the list of headlines, it's influence already is such that it is given more privileges and special rights and special status and special attentions than any other cult, relgion, ideology. And still it says it's not enough! It will never be enough - not before all is it's own.

Burnijg books usually is not good. But there are somne books that are bad and evil and have cause dnothing but hate and intolerance and bloodshed throughout their history. Hitler's Mein Kampf, or the Quran are two such books. You should not cry if their poisenous ideas and content get lost: it would be a great acchievement for mankind. There simply never comes any good from these books, and there is no way you can relativise the evil of their content by saying that burning the one book opens door and gate for burning all books, that is nonsense caused by crucifying onself over absolutist demands. You do not portest when Chriszian churches get opressed in islamic countries, and Jewish communtiies are almost driven out, fleeing countries wehre they lived since centuries now.

The receiver of your good will in no ways deserves your good intention. Be careful you do not will the other that freedom that he needs to take away from you freedom. Free societies need to define where freedom ends, too: and that is when freedom gets abused for destroying freedom, like Islam does.

Aramike · 08-01-10, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Burnijg books usually is not good. But there are somne books that are bad and evil and have cause dnothing but hate and intolerance and bloodshed throughout their history. Hitler's Mein Kampf, or the Quran are two such books. You should not cry if their poisenous ideas and content get lost: it would be a great acchievement for mankind. There simply never comes any good from these books, and there is no way you can relativise the evil of their content by saying that burning the one book opens door and gate for burning all books, that is nonsense caused by crucifying onself over absolutist demands. You do not portest when Chriszian churches get opressed in islamic countries, and Jewish communtiies are almost driven out, fleeing countries wehre they lived since centuries now.

There's only one thing I disagree with here, and wish to comment on.

I have no problem with the burning of the the Quran as symbolism, but I wouldn't want it (or even Mein Kampf) completely destroyed. These are excellent examples of the depths which human depravity can reach, and along with historical context, they can definitely be useful in helping us from being "...doomed to repeat..." history.

The rest of your points? Spot on.

Admiral8Q · 08-01-10, 04:41 AM

That is terrible. Get a brain man is my advice to that old guy.

Skybird · 08-01-10, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike

I have no problem with the burning of the the Quran as symbolism, but I wouldn't want it (or even Mein Kampf) completely destroyed. These are excellent examples of the depths which human depravity can reach, and along with historical context, they can definitely be useful in helping us from being "...doomed to repeat..." history.

It is said that othing can stop an idea whose time hgas come. While I take that more in a romantic than literal understanding, i tend to think that dieas and ideologies can be infectous the the ojne and the many minds. Thus, if I identify an ideology to be extremely irrational end driven by hysteric sentiments and to be of extreme evil like religious fanatism and fundamentlaism, then I tend to think that not much can be learned from them in the way you described it, but that they can infest minds by just being dealt with. So, if you want to save them, please do it like oyu handle ebola and anthrax and all the other biological agents for war as well: in a deep hidden bunker where you have doors of steel 10 cm thick and extremely limited access, with security all around, and the place hidden from the public, at best being buried, forgotten, and become a silent victim of time.

We must not always preserve the germs of terror and evil. Destroying it, if we can, may prove to be fully sufficient. Think of it as one step on the stairs that our ancestors have tried, slipped and barely survived the fall by getting a grab at last second, and then climbed higher, leaving that slippery step behind and never wasting another thought on it. What can belearned from it: Only to watch out more careful for the steps before you.

Aramike · 08-01-10, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

It is said that othing can stop an idea whose time hgas come. While I take that more in a romantic than literal understanding, i tend to think that dieas and ideologies can be infectous the the ojne and the many minds. Thus, if I identify an ideology to be extremely irrational end driven by hysteric sentiments and to be of extreme evil like religious fanatism and fundamentlaism, then I tend to think that not much can be learned from them in the way you described it, but that they can infest minds by just being dealt with. So, if you want to save them, please do it like oyu handle ebola and anthrax and all the other biological agents for war as well: in a deep hidden bunker where you have doors of steel 10 cm thick and extremely limited access, with security all around, and the place hidden from the public, at best being buried, forgotten, and become a silent victim of time.

We must not always preserve the germs of terror and evil. Destroying it, if we can, may prove to be fully sufficient. Think of it as one step on the stairs that our ancestors have tried, slipped and barely survived the fall by getting a grab at last second, and then climbed higher, leaving that slippery step behind and never wasting another thought on it. What can belearned from it: Only to watch out more careful for the steps before you.

I understand where you are coming from, but I have to respectfully disagree. Take away Mein Kampf, someone will just write another. But the ACT of taking it away would make it a martyr of ideological openess.

People have believed in such evil since well before Hitler or Mohammed - their infamies merely propelled their works to the forefront of our discussions. However, evil texts being available to all, due to their overwhelming opposition, clearly displays what as a species we've decided what is right, and what is wrong.

Destroying such works would only remove the disdain society has for the ideas they represent - it would do nothing to rid the ideas themselves.

And, quite frankly, removing the fact that derision for those ideas are mainstream would leave our world as open to those ideas as Germany was to Hitler - and that I find outright frightening.

Skybird · 08-01-10, 05:40 AM

Such ideas might want to show up again, yes, maybe later, maybe earlier. But we must not reserve the the space, time and opportunity for them to do so - by not fighting against their symptoms but even protecting their manifestation. I see too often that what is of hostile nature is getting tolerated in the name of freedom or "learning from it", but nothing gets learned for sure, only the hostile idea is allowed to grow and gain influence, and everybody just stands and watches it and says "It's okay, that is our freedom".

The Nazis were not made to go away from learning from them, but by killing them. Religious fanatism throughout Europe was not made to go away by learning from it, but from opposing, superior education that then started to confront it head on. Where an evil idea is given free space in the name of tolerance or freedom, we do not see people learning from it how to avoid it, but we see the fanatism growing in influence and size again.

It's like with weed in the garden. You do not allow it some refugium, and you do not just observe how it is doing, but you cut it off, you rip it out by the roots, and you eventually use poison to prevent it from coming back soon. It comes back, yes - but later.

The fight against what is bad, or "evil", is never producing a final result. It buys time - whether or not you buy more or less time, and need to fight sooner or later in the future again, is up to your action in the present. We simply live in a dualistic world concept of our minds, we cannot imagine the world to be different. Everything rising already holds the reason of its own fall inside of it. This ensures that there is movement and change and hopefully: developement. Everything seems to run in cycles. We can only try to influence the length of time between the beginning and the ending of something, and we want to make the time between both very long if it is somethign good, and we want to make the time between both very short if it is about something bad. But in the end, neither the good nor the bad will ever last forever.

So lets take a deep breath and mobilise all our powers to make sure the darkness of mind will not last one generation longer than absolutely necessary. Switch on the searchlights and push dark ideas into the focus of our spotlights to expose them as what they are and see them in full light and unhidden detail - no matter how much they complain about not being given the respect that they claim for themselves. What relgious ideas call respect, in fact is just religion's denial of checking itself.

08-01-10, 05:52 AM

The irony here is that many of skys lines can be taken from mein kampf.

Quote:

The fight against what is bad, or "evil", is never producing a final result

hmmmmmm....a wanasee solution.

Quote:

So, if you want to save them, please do it like oyu handle ebola and anthrax

A new screenplay, the eternal muslim.

Stealth Hunter · 08-01-10, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike

I have no problem with the burning of the the Quran as symbolism, but I wouldn't want it (or even Mein Kampf) completely destroyed. These are excellent examples of the depths which human depravity can reach . . .

....wow.

Funnily enough, the Qur'an borrows most of its background religious materials from the Bible (both New and Old Testaments) and the Torah. In fact, the Angel Gabriel is supposedly the messenger who brought Mohammad all the makings to be compiled into the Qur'an (this, of course, completely ignoring the teaching that Jesus was a prophet of Allah and was very wise and powerful from being backed by him).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike

. . .and along with historical context, they can definitely be useful in helping us from being "...doomed to repeat history...".

There's nothing dooming about the Qur'an. No more than there is about the Bible. The problem of religion is its spawning of fanatics. They are what's really dooming in all this. But they can be found in anything just about, including politics.

tater · 08-01-10, 09:11 AM

People buying books to burn them IS symbolism, nothing else.

This is not the real topic, but in these discussions at some point there is usually a false connection made between private actions and "censorship." The latter requires state action—it's not like some fundies can stop the sale or publication of the koran. In fact, as noted, they actually increase sales by the number bought to burn. Burn enough, and the next printing might be BIGGER

.

Note of course that walking around with a Bible is likely a crime in most Muslim countries.

Skybird · 08-01-10, 09:14 AM

Sure, sure , it's all a question of "interpretation" what essentially leaves little room of interpretation. The evil lies in the eye of the beholder only.

Just compare the state in which Islamic societies are, regarding tolerance and multiculturalism, and Christian ones. compare to what degree Christians base primarily on the old testament, or the four gospels n owadays. Try to see such a reformist difference in the Quran/Hadith/Sharia, in islam's global behavior today. Islamic societies are were christian ones were many generations ago - locked in intellectual darkness and fatalistic religious superstition and fanatism, not even mentioning the enslaving of women.

and explain why every year in Muslim countries and in the name of Islam thousands and thousands of people get killed (claimed Muslims and infidels alike), even more discriminated, tortured, driven away - without all this raising big concerns and protests amonst Muslim populations - while in the West this is not so, but all is so incredibly much better and more humane and free over here. How comes that infidels and foreign priests time and again get murdered in Muslim countries for religious reasons, whereas in the West the assassination of Muslims is a real rarity?

Islam has nothing to do with it?

Islam has all to do with it, becasue it is a time trap. The clash of cultures, is a clash between historic eras. Islam today is in and celebrates that condition as civilisational superiority where our ancestors have been several generations ago, centuries and one millenia ago. Islam is driven by those motives that in past centuries the West has been driven by - but is no more!!! - when there still had not been a loss of power and control of the church, and where the West culture was when it was under influence of the dogma of the OT and the Catholic church. Those were bad and dark times for europe. We have left them beidn sicne lomng. Islam is stuck in the middle of this darkness - since many centuries, and I do not see it even trying to creep put of it. Instead, it tries to enforce this darkness on all others, too.

Changing that dogma, leaving it behind, having a reformation, a focussing on the new testament and the four gospels, having a pushing back of the religious people'S power and refusing the church almost total control: all this are inevtiable preconditions for the freedoms and humanistic ideals we have today, the cultural blossoming, the developement of arts and sciences both in quantity and quality, the forming of a cultural tolerance that is possibly unique in the history of mankind. The big wars we fought in the past generations: were not fought over religious missions anymore, but nationalistic and political ideas.

But islam should not have anything to do with the state the Islamic world is in - stuck with it'S head in the a### of history, 1400 years deep, impotent by itself when it is about agriculture, technology, science, economy, true tolerance for others, legal rights, and declaring half of mankind - the female - as de facto slaves, and all infidels as victims that either must be killed or subjugated, dealt with in mandatory discrimination to let them feel their just penalty for resisting the will of Allah?

It is not about being offensive, SH, but Islam is the biggest pain in the a## of the world, a problem for all of us refusing to embrace it, and the biggest cause of bloodshed, torture and supression in the modern world. Islam must fundamentally change itself, and that means, since it cannot be changed, it must be replaced, and this is not possible as long as well-meaning tolerant guys int he West continue to save it from asking critical questions about itself, not analysing it's own history and identity, and just deceiving itself and all others as well. the confrontation, the conflict this means, is inevitable and is absolutely a necessity if Wetsern freedom and tolerance and ideals and culture and humanism shall survive, at least in the part of the world that is called "the West".

And I think even in the Islamic world there is a bit of discomfort with one's own ideologic basis - else one would not invest so much energy on denying it's barbaric heritage, nicetalking it, glossing over it, and even denying or forging history when it does not confirm with Islam'S official opinion on how things have been.

This constant underlying attitude that the bad being done in the name of Islam has nothign to do with Islam, is getting tiresome. Islam has much less space for interpretation, than most people are aware of. and that is becasue Muhammad had a high interest in making his preachings anythijg but open to ionterpretation - he was after exactly the opposite, to secure his claim for power and his undisputed control by enforcing uniformity and preventing (by supression, accusations of heresy, and assassination) all opinions that were not falling into line with him. Absolute power and free opinion do not mix well together. Interpretation is the last thing that Muhammad wanted/Islam wants.

UnderseaLcpl · 08-01-10, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike

It is the fact that such interpretations of the modern Christian faith are more common than not which makes me harbor great respect, even envy, for those who engage in it.

Thanks, Aramike. That's nice of you to say. I may even forgive you for ripping all of my limbs off and killing one of my favorite gefreiters, you flea-bitten Satanic Hellhound

tater · 08-01-10, 10:01 AM

OK, so book burning pisses many of us off (though if you're gonna burn books, religious fantasy titles are a great place to start

).

That said, what about when here in the west, we see something functionally the same to me. Self-censorship.

Danish cartoons. What newspapers, magazines, or TV networks showed the "offensive" cartoons? Which ones? South Park—censored by its network. This is the same as book burning to me. It's not state action, but it is a SYMBOL of submission. It is a symbolic burning of documents that mean something—the Constitution, for example. Note that they did NOT self-censor the countless episodes that poke at "Jesus and Pals" on South Park. Or the attacks on Mormans, or Scientology. Only one religion gets a pass.

Ceding our freedom of expression for any reason is wrong. If that means not getting POed about the expression that is book (or flag) burning, so be it.

Skybird · 08-01-10, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

OK, so book burning pisses many of us off (though if you're gonna burn books, religious fantasy titles are a great place to start

).

That said, what about when here in the west, we see something functionally the same to me. Self-censorship.

Danish cartoons. What newspapers, magazines, or TV networks showed the "offensive" cartoons? Which ones? South Park—censored by its network. This is the same as book burning to me. It's not state action, but it is a SYMBOL of submission. It is a symbolic burning of documents that mean something—the Constitution, for example. Note that they did NOT self-censor the countless episodes that poke at "Jesus and Pals" on South Park. Or the attacks on Mormans, or Scientology. Only one religion gets a pass.

Ceding our freedom of expression for any reason is wrong. If that means not getting POed about the expression that is book (or flag) burning, so be it.

Not to mention what is about stoning women for alleged adultry becasue a male witness counts two times over a female. Hanging homosexuals. Cutting of limbs becasue the thief was hungry and caught a banana. Stabbing the daughter to death because she became guilty by having been raped by group of men (who maybe even belonged to the family). Claiming right of property over females and whipping wives if they are not obedient enough. Beheading infidels if they resist islam. Demading Jews to wear yellow dots on their cloathing.

And so very very very much more up to the scale of genocide against christian populations in africa, terror against buddhists and hindus in asia, terror and war in Lebanon, hate preaching in mosques and islamic culture Centres throughout europe, etc etc etc.

It all has nothing to do with Islam, it's just the misdoing of some freaks who misunderstood islam and give it a bad name - with most of the Muslim world staying silent on these things and even supporting them with their states' money.

In the past 8 years or so, almost 16,000 people have been killed in the name of Islam, in warzones, and in muslim nations, and in mixed nations - genocides like in southeast africa not even counted. Substantial reactions from the Ummah to all this? None, just shrugging shoulder at best. But when a cartoonist in the West does in the West what in the West is perfectly allowed by Western rule, law and habit: drawing a cartoon, then all hell breakes lose, and Islam is once again presented as the perfect victim of global conspiracy. One critical word, one question on Islam - and immediately the religion of peace runs rethorical and sometimes practical amok, breathing fire and brimstone and teminding us to be more "sensible" and to prove once again that we are tolerant while being slapped into the face and pushed back one more step once again.

Aramike · 08-01-10, 02:12 PM

Quote:

....wow.

Funnily enough, the Qur'an borrows most of its background religious materials from the Bible (both New and Old Testaments) and the Torah. In fact, the Angel Gabriel is supposedly the messenger who brought Mohammad all the makings to be compiled into the Qur'an (this, of course, completely ignoring the teaching that Jesus was a prophet of Allah and was very wise and powerful from being backed by him).

So? How does this relate to anything being discussed?

(We are discussing the particulars of the literary DEMANDS of modern faiths, not their histories.)

Quote:

There's nothing dooming about the Qur'an. No more than there is about the Bible. The problem of religion is its spawning of fanatics. They are what's really dooming in all this. But they can be found in anything just about, including politics.

You completely misunderstand my point.

What I was saying is that, take the actions of men throughout history (a great example: the crusades) and preserve the texts they interpretted as a justification, as a way of identifying the contexts in which evil is committed.

What YOU are trying to illustrate is the Bible and Quran are somehow similar in their texts. They are not. The Quran (specifically its demands upon modern Muslims) is barbaric at best. The Bible (specifically its demands upon modern Christians) is not.

08-01-10, 04:16 AM	#32
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,632 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	When Islamic societies start to worry about how they massively, shamelessly discriminate other beliefs and cultures and how they supress the display or the historic monuments of expression of such other cultures and even destroy them - then I will start to worry about burning the Quran. Freedom is all nice and well, but it ashould be given to somebody else only if he does not use that freedom to destroy freedom. Building that mosque is a provocation and the orginsation behind that coup is directly linked to openly hostile Islamists of the most radical spectrum, as explained in the article I linked. It is a mocking of the victims - and many Americans and Westerners are even lame enough in their heads not to see it or not wanting to see it. That some nevertheless are so pissed by the fact that the ideology that has caused, motivated and justified the 9/11 attacks now even is shameless enough to raise it's own ugly grinning face over the graves of the victims and to stageact a satire of itself being oh so innocent and even a victim of misunderstandings, is so rhich and underhanded that people feeling the urge to to "burn it" in a way is just a natural human reaction. Brind down Islam - before it has completely brought down freedom, education and enlightenment. The damage already is big, the dark seed in the minds of peope already has been sown, it's presence in world media and global attention makes it the number 1 top item in the list of headlines, it's influence already is such that it is given more privileges and special rights and special status and special attentions than any other cult, relgion, ideology. And still it says it's not enough! It will never be enough - not before all is it's own. Burnijg books usually is not good. But there are somne books that are bad and evil and have cause dnothing but hate and intolerance and bloodshed throughout their history. Hitler's Mein Kampf, or the Quran are two such books. You should not cry if their poisenous ideas and content get lost: it would be a great acchievement for mankind. There simply never comes any good from these books, and there is no way you can relativise the evil of their content by saying that burning the one book opens door and gate for burning all books, that is nonsense caused by crucifying onself over absolutist demands. You do not portest when Chriszian churches get opressed in islamic countries, and Jewish communtiies are almost driven out, fleeing countries wehre they lived since centuries now. The receiver of your good will in no ways deserves your good intention. Be careful you do not will the other that freedom that he needs to take away from you freedom. Free societies need to define where freedom ends, too: and that is when freedom gets abused for destroying freedom, like Islam does. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-01-10, 04:41 AM	#34
Admiral8Q Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada Posts: 1,077 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	That is terrible. Get a brain man is my advice to that old guy. __________________

08-01-10, 05:40 AM	#37
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,632 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Such ideas might want to show up again, yes, maybe later, maybe earlier. But we must not reserve the the space, time and opportunity for them to do so - by not fighting against their symptoms but even protecting their manifestation. I see too often that what is of hostile nature is getting tolerated in the name of freedom or "learning from it", but nothing gets learned for sure, only the hostile idea is allowed to grow and gain influence, and everybody just stands and watches it and says "It's okay, that is our freedom". The Nazis were not made to go away from learning from them, but by killing them. Religious fanatism throughout Europe was not made to go away by learning from it, but from opposing, superior education that then started to confront it head on. Where an evil idea is given free space in the name of tolerance or freedom, we do not see people learning from it how to avoid it, but we see the fanatism growing in influence and size again. It's like with weed in the garden. You do not allow it some refugium, and you do not just observe how it is doing, but you cut it off, you rip it out by the roots, and you eventually use poison to prevent it from coming back soon. It comes back, yes - but later. The fight against what is bad, or "evil", is never producing a final result. It buys time - whether or not you buy more or less time, and need to fight sooner or later in the future again, is up to your action in the present. We simply live in a dualistic world concept of our minds, we cannot imagine the world to be different. Everything rising already holds the reason of its own fall inside of it. This ensures that there is movement and change and hopefully: developement. Everything seems to run in cycles. We can only try to influence the length of time between the beginning and the ending of something, and we want to make the time between both very long if it is somethign good, and we want to make the time between both very short if it is about something bad. But in the end, neither the good nor the bad will ever last forever. So lets take a deep breath and mobilise all our powers to make sure the darkness of mind will not last one generation longer than absolutely necessary. Switch on the searchlights and push dark ideas into the focus of our spotlights to expose them as what they are and see them in full light and unhidden detail - no matter how much they complain about not being given the respect that they claim for themselves. What relgious ideas call respect, in fact is just religion's denial of checking itself. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 08-01-10 at 07:43 AM.

08-01-10, 09:14 AM	#41
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,632 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Sure, sure , it's all a question of "interpretation" what essentially leaves little room of interpretation. The evil lies in the eye of the beholder only. Just compare the state in which Islamic societies are, regarding tolerance and multiculturalism, and Christian ones. compare to what degree Christians base primarily on the old testament, or the four gospels n owadays. Try to see such a reformist difference in the Quran/Hadith/Sharia, in islam's global behavior today. Islamic societies are were christian ones were many generations ago - locked in intellectual darkness and fatalistic religious superstition and fanatism, not even mentioning the enslaving of women. and explain why every year in Muslim countries and in the name of Islam thousands and thousands of people get killed (claimed Muslims and infidels alike), even more discriminated, tortured, driven away - without all this raising big concerns and protests amonst Muslim populations - while in the West this is not so, but all is so incredibly much better and more humane and free over here. How comes that infidels and foreign priests time and again get murdered in Muslim countries for religious reasons, whereas in the West the assassination of Muslims is a real rarity? Islam has nothing to do with it? Islam has all to do with it, becasue it is a time trap. The clash of cultures, is a clash between historic eras. Islam today is in and celebrates that condition as civilisational superiority where our ancestors have been several generations ago, centuries and one millenia ago. Islam is driven by those motives that in past centuries the West has been driven by - but is no more!!! - when there still had not been a loss of power and control of the church, and where the West culture was when it was under influence of the dogma of the OT and the Catholic church. Those were bad and dark times for europe. We have left them beidn sicne lomng. Islam is stuck in the middle of this darkness - since many centuries, and I do not see it even trying to creep put of it. Instead, it tries to enforce this darkness on all others, too. Changing that dogma, leaving it behind, having a reformation, a focussing on the new testament and the four gospels, having a pushing back of the religious people'S power and refusing the church almost total control: all this are inevtiable preconditions for the freedoms and humanistic ideals we have today, the cultural blossoming, the developement of arts and sciences both in quantity and quality, the forming of a cultural tolerance that is possibly unique in the history of mankind. The big wars we fought in the past generations: were not fought over religious missions anymore, but nationalistic and political ideas. But islam should not have anything to do with the state the Islamic world is in - stuck with it'S head in the a### of history, 1400 years deep, impotent by itself when it is about agriculture, technology, science, economy, true tolerance for others, legal rights, and declaring half of mankind - the female - as de facto slaves, and all infidels as victims that either must be killed or subjugated, dealt with in mandatory discrimination to let them feel their just penalty for resisting the will of Allah? It is not about being offensive, SH, but Islam is the biggest pain in the a## of the world, a problem for all of us refusing to embrace it, and the biggest cause of bloodshed, torture and supression in the modern world. Islam must fundamentally change itself, and that means, since it cannot be changed, it must be replaced, and this is not possible as long as well-meaning tolerant guys int he West continue to save it from asking critical questions about itself, not analysing it's own history and identity, and just deceiving itself and all others as well. the confrontation, the conflict this means, is inevitable and is absolutely a necessity if Wetsern freedom and tolerance and ideals and culture and humanism shall survive, at least in the part of the world that is called "the West". And I think even in the Islamic world there is a bit of discomfort with one's own ideologic basis - else one would not invest so much energy on denying it's barbaric heritage, nicetalking it, glossing over it, and even denying or forging history when it does not confirm with Islam'S official opinion on how things have been. This constant underlying attitude that the bad being done in the name of Islam has nothign to do with Islam, is getting tiresome. Islam has much less space for interpretation, than most people are aware of. and that is becasue Muhammad had a high interest in making his preachings anythijg but open to ionterpretation - he was after exactly the opposite, to secure his claim for power and his undisputed control by enforcing uniformity and preventing (by supression, accusations of heresy, and assassination) all opinions that were not falling into line with him. Absolute power and free opinion do not mix well together. Interpretation is the last thing that Muhammad wanted/Islam wants. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

08-01-10, 09:11 AM	#40
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	People buying books to burn them IS symbolism, nothing else. This is not the real topic, but in these discussions at some point there is usually a false connection made between private actions and "censorship." The latter requires state action—it's not like some fundies can stop the sale or publication of the koran. In fact, as noted, they actually increase sales by the number bought to burn. Burn enough, and the next printing might be BIGGER . Note of course that walking around with a Bible is likely a crime in most Muslim countries.

08-01-10, 10:01 AM	#43
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	OK, so book burning pisses many of us off (though if you're gonna burn books, religious fantasy titles are a great place to start ). That said, what about when here in the west, we see something functionally the same to me. Self-censorship. Danish cartoons. What newspapers, magazines, or TV networks showed the "offensive" cartoons? Which ones? South Park—censored by its network. This is the same as book burning to me. It's not state action, but it is a SYMBOL of submission. It is a symbolic burning of documents that mean something—the Constitution, for example. Note that they did NOT self-censor the countless episodes that poke at "Jesus and Pals" on South Park. Or the attacks on Mormans, or Scientology. Only one religion gets a pass. Ceding our freedom of expression for any reason is wrong. If that means not getting POed about the expression that is book (or flag) burning, so be it.