Muhammad's ball, or: what Islam has done to the French National Team

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

well, like i said before, we've had these arguments before and nothing has been gained. you refuse to accept that there are several different theological schools in islam -- you have a very black and white view of things which in my opinion are significantly nuanced.

I am not unaware of these, I just refuse them the legitimation they often claim, and I do so for hiostoiriuc reasons, reasons that lie in the scritpure, and I also asnwer you that you seem to ignore the many things on which they agree. In the end, muslims have no porblems, whenever it is for their advanatge, to refer to and confess to always just "Islam" itself", and the one Ummah of islam. Not different versions of the one or the other. The perceived diversity of possible interpretation of quran - for kost is a wetsern ionvention of the past 40, 50 years. And even many promionent muslim clerics, pliktici9ans, and spokesmen deny that diversity of Islam, labelling it an insult to think there is diversity possible in the Quranic tradition. Since the 9th or 10th century, there is agreement between the most dominant six major school of law in Islam that the abrogation principle in Quranic suras is existing and is valid. It also is laid out right in words in at least four different passages of the Quran.

no problem, that's your opinion. i would prefer it however, if you would stop saying i'm not muslim. after all, i must be, since i get hassled at airports all the time.

Flawed logic in that argument. On being Muslim, see me earlier answer(s).

what i'm trying to say is its very simple to lay the blame on islam, when most of the problems in these ME countries have to do with government, tribal, local, and national, which has more to do greed and personal aggrandizement than any religous dogma.

So says you, ignroing that the cultural climate of these palces inflkuenced the factors you mentioned to stay what they are. Europe has been in a much poorer intellectual and scierntiifc and cultural state, too, however, europe was able to imporve, to develope, to grow, to blossom, and leave the supression of females and witch hhunts, relgious intolerance and patriarchalism behind to very wide degrees. I wonder if that has somethign to do with the power of the church's dogma getting broken and the role and influence of dogmatic relgion being relativised?

the outlook of individuals from saudi, for example, where had work is somewhat frowned upon and they'd much prefer paying someone else to do the work, is totally different from someone from oman where they try to be more self-sufficient. even in saudi that is changing due to economic pressures. but it's simpler to just say, "it's because of their religion."

The rich nations basing on oil - see that oil being produced with Wetsern technology, that was developed by Wetsern science, the facitlites oftehn get run and maintained by Wetsern experts, and the managing of the trade and fiancial business gets organised by wetsern examples. the only merit these nations have in their welath is - that they have oilö. but that is no merit i itself, nor a cultural acchievement. and the many mega-buildings they have risen in the gulf region recnetly: you see wetsern architects, and constuction being done by workers from foreign countries, with materials and technical solutions develkoped in asian and western places. and whenever ther eis an epidemic spreading, whom, do you call? the Ansar university in Khairo where students spend half of their time learning relgious dogmas - or the disease control centre in Atlanta? when Lybia needs a reorganisation of it'S health system and hospoitals - does it acchieve that all by itself or by blackmailing foriegn nations to bring in the knowhow on how to do it? the satelittes for dubai TV broadcasting - are they the product of science run in the islamic cultural sphere, or the West? The basic fundamental knowlöedge and understanding for modern science and tehcnology - developed in the West and Japan/china, or in the islamci world? modern agricultural standards and multiplication of harvest incomes - by methods of traditional ME habits, or by wetsern knowledge and knowhow? What had the Palestinians made of their living place before the Israelis came? back then, it was a stony desert, today the Israelis run agriculture their that is incredible for such a dry place. and on and on and on the list goes. and this althiough 1400 years ago arabian peninsula was far ahead of Europe in trade, science, medical treatement! and then it stopped to move forward, and stagnated. that was it for them until poil was found. And if westerners wouldn't have found it for them, and wouldn'T have priduced it for them, then they still would not know what to make of it and how to turn it into money.

Now, I save myself from, listing a series of general philosophic and legal accievements of the West, that for most are still maintained and by wide consensus are agree upon in the Western world, from the equality of women to the freedom of speech, from the banning of slavery to the belief that the dignity of man/women (even infidels!) should be untouchable.

The West is not perfect, and for two steps forwqards it seem to make one step back, or takes a sidestep. but all in all we improved ourselves more or less constantly since centuries. the Muslim sphere of influence: stagnates, became fatalistic, uncreative, passive. By mental attitude it still is where it was over a thousand years ago. When Napoleon landed in Egypt and showed the Muslim world that infidels not only could reach them, but had superior means available and that muslims could not even do anything to to deny them entry or keep them away, that was not onlya shock - it was an offence for an ideology that saw and still sees itself as the greatest installement of civilisational superiority on this planet. and due to this "offence" that is defined by others having done better than the so self-glorifying Islamic world itself - you people still feel constantly offended by others - instead of seeing the falure in your own cultural system that is so massively mutilated by islam despite the once sueprior starting conditions that you had.

If I were you or any muslim, I would curse and doom Muhammad for what he has done to my people's future.

it's very easy to say, "the failings of these immigrants is due to their religion" -- perhaps it is. but perhaps it also has to do with their starting point in either their home country or wherever they've immigrated to.

One wonders why other immigrants do so much better, and why Muslim migrants starting point is so much inferior to that of others, then. could it be that it has soemthign to do with their hostory, theirt attitude they had been raised to, the educaiton influencing the way in which they approach - or not approach the challenges of life and migrating to another place...? Admitted, the West is stupid enough to m,ake it easy for them to fail, by feeding them and cuddling them wiothiut daring to raise demands to them. gemany is probaly the kost stupid wetsern country in this regard. Australia, america, Canada, and others do ask their immigranst what they have to offer to contribute to the nation'S improvement. In Germany, asking that is considered to be discrimination. I think that way we deserve to get only those migrants that other nations already have refused. We bancrupt ourselves that way.

as to the fact that offspring of immigrants tend to be more orthodox -- i see you don't mention the interpretation that some sociologists have that this is a response to either perceived or real social injustices.

I know that argument, and it is coming from left socialists, pedagogues, and the what in Germany is called the 68-generation trying to gloss over the situation. as a matter of fact, such effects can be calculated out of statistics, so that you can demonstrate for example that the higher representation in crime statistics is not due to social injustice, but due to inner sociological constellations founded on the cultural background and unhealthy family situations. Lacking perspectives can serve as intermitting variables, as they are called in German statistics, too, of course they can. But then you need to ask why this affects Muslim miograns more than non-Muslim migrants, and again you need to conclude that the muslim background has somethign to do with it due to the influence on mindset, general attitude. It is interesting that those muslim girls/women that suffer more from Islam than men, do much better at school, at the cost of raising more family conflicts and accepting personal risks: female muslim young immigrants outclass their male companions in most educational and acadmeical scores. which again is an offence to Muslim men, and makes them more supressive to their sisters and girlfriends. the number of male-female conflicts in families (especially regarding sisters/daughters), is rising. That is because better education means more success and also more demand to benefit from the superior wetsern freedoms and values.Education is the enemy of every relgion, and islam is no exception. Islamic education wants submission by the girls, and compliance with the dogma. Grils viollating this scheme, live dangerous. but such girls, and women craving for more freedom in muslim ****ries, are another reason why I attack islam so unforgivingly. not attacking it means to betray the hopes for a better life and escape from supression and de facto slavery for hundreds of milions of girls and women - something that many islamophile appeasers just ignore.

there are certainly a lot of faults with the interpretation and implementation of islamic theology, most muslims recognize that there are different schools of theology so i'm not sure why other people find it so difficult.

Maybe becasue that variety of possible interpretations is illusory, or ill-based. To me, the teaching of quran is primitive, inhumane, and evil, and I can fully understand the need in people to try to believe in so,mehtijg better than that. The old god of the Thora is a tyrannic psychopath and sadistic dictator. It took quite some creative, hairsplitting, witty intellectualism to turn that beast of a guy into the forgiving, well-meaning father modern Jews prefer to believe in, and christians as well. the christian god in the OT is basing on the Jewish Jahwe, but the new testament (Jesus reforming of Judaic belief - that si what made him so dangerous to the pharisees) implemented a different con cpet of God, and again some century later came the inner-christian reformation, leading to the splitting of the church into Orthodox Catholicism, and Protestants. there was a desire to leave the old revnging vulcan god of thethora and Ot behind, and the same desire is felt by many Muslims - thus their desire to distort the quranic teaching to degrees that quran simply does not support, and thinking that the resulting "interpretation" of islam nevertheless wopuld be "original". It is a compliment for muslims that they see the need to escape the Quranic origianl conceptions. but they are inconsistent when that does not lead them to question the claimed fame and status of that conception, and want to be seen in conformity with it while already having abandoned it in parts.

when you see the evil in Nazism and refuse Nazism therefore, there is no excuse why you nevertheless want to be seen as a Nazi. eventually you do it if you think you can make claims over it for benefits that otherwise you donot deserve. I think that is wehat many Muslims do on a subconsious level.

I don't buy it, and tell them instead: kick all that dusty nonsense out of the window, don't waste time with demanding undeserved profits for yourself that you did not earn, and finally start moving again, after one millenia you have to move fast in order to ctahc up with therest of the modern world again. That way, and only that way, you will improve your places, will give your children a btter, less intellectually castrated future, that way you will earn the creativioty to forge your own fate instead of depending on the inventions of other cultures. and only that way you will beocme less a paijn in the a$$ for all the other natiosn and cultures on this planet that escaped the fate of having been subjugated by islam so far.

For wanting that, you can get my respect. For dojng so, you can get my support and help.

For staying like you are, you only get my mockery and my determined und non-negotiable resistence.