Muhammad's ball, or: what Islam has done to the French National Team

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MH

It is isnt it?
The educational system needs recheck?

It does. Just read at BBC that 10% and more of Muslim parents in Britain are about to withdraw - or alrerady have withdrawn - their children from music classes, since good ol Muhammad had banned music instruments.

From various countries in europe there were so many stories over the past few years when Muslim in not just few numbers withdrew their kids from biology lessons. Swimming lessons. Sports lessons. Class activities outside the teaching lessons. Now music lessons. What's next? Banning mathematics, for it teaches them logical thinking? Banning English/German/French/etc classes, for it makes them vulnerable to integration?

This is hilarious in itself, it is intolerant and "anti-integration", it is at the disadvantage of the children, and it means troubles regarding rooms and personnell for smaller schools that cannot afford both to supervise the dear little victims of Muslim superior and og so sensible mindsets. Once again Islam has demanded a special role and a special status regarding something, and once again it seems to get away with it.

There is a reason why Arabia, although it had superior starting conditions compared to Europe, fell behind so qickly once Muhammad'S impact became felt. Within 3 centuries they fell from superior economy and science status, to total fatasism and stagnation. The man's teaching has banned and declared any sort of education and science that would enable people to think independently, critically, ask questions that would trigger answers the quran does not hold, and conduct scientific analytical work that dares to touch issues that are not of a purely technical, most direct pragmatic use. Instead, all questions must be develooed in a form and manner that the answers proves the Quran to be right. All tradition of reflecting upon existential questions and basic, underlying probpems of science, as well as scientific methods to examine them, have been banned, prevented and declared a heresy. That is why the Muslim world still is stuck in the medieval in thought, skill and technological competence. All they do is buying or copying or demanding the fruit of our cultural tradition that has lead to our cultural mental climate that the free unfolding of science and arts without taboos became possible. At best they learn how to technically handle the fruits of our technology. understanding the why and how is forbiodden. And often even operating this technology is below their dignity: then they call in foreigners to their countries who need to run them for them. Look at Saudi Arabia, look at Dubai, look at Lybia - it's always the same pattern.

Primitive, inhumane in that it is a mobbing and supression of human potential - including the use of our brain - ,and disgusting. Cirumcision right between the ears, that's what it is.

why Westerners time and again are so stupid to tolerate this and think of it as a sign of tolerance that would encourage integration, is beyond me. It does not help integration, it helps: self-chosen separatism.

Just read at BBC that 10% and more of Muslim parents in Britain are about to withdraw -

Oh no you didn't, you just read that maybe about 10% could find potential problems with them, which means culturally they belong in the Britain of the commonwealth period.
Isn't it amazing how skybird can find a story, change the story and then say that the story shows what he said all along.

[tater]

As a reality check, all the Muslim countries require outside help to survive as well. It's not like they've invented anything useful since they came up with falafel. MOst that have any economy to speak of do solely because of kufir oil needs.

Their entire modern lifestyle is purchased from the kufir. Anything modern they make is just a copy of something invented by non-muslims.

Note that the same can be said of most religious fundamentalists, but remember that ALL muslim sects are fundies.

[caspofungin]

lol... you tar 1 billion people all with the same brush, skybird blames everything wrong in modern society on muslims and immigrants, but i'm the fundamentalist crazy?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

lol... you tar 1 billion people all with the same brush, skybird blames everything wrong in modern society on muslims and immigrants, but i'm the fundamentalist crazy?

Don't know whether you are or not, but by this your quoted statement - and other in the past - you certainly show to be a generalist who is nice-talking things whose nasty sides you want to know being ignored and not taken note of, as if they would not exist and would not have dirtect and indirect tremendous influence over dozens if not hundreds of millions. In the end I must say at least this: that almost all Muslims in the world are united in at least one thing - that they always blame others for their own cultural and educational failure and think they are the most prominent victim of other cultures that human history does know of - at the same time ignoring the massive destruction of foreign cultures that Islam has caused (and defends until today) - the biggest, greatest, longest-lasting and most successful history of military conquest, land-taking and culture-annihilating that is recorded in the books of history.

Originally Posted by W. Churchill

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.

The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

-- Sir Winston Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 [London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899]).

Originally Posted by W. Churchill

Wow Sky starts off with an article about the blacks and the muslims ruining football, now we have Churchill and the fuzzywuzzies

BTW as apparently Germany is overrun with muslims and immigrants like Sky always says, how comes their team is doing OK in the world cup despite it containing blacks muslims and immigrants?

[caspofungin]

first, sky, i know all about the "nasty things" you bitch about, having lived in various bits of the middle east for half my life. you go on and on blaming a religion for all kinds of things -- but to me there's no difference between you and someone who uses religion as an excuse for their actions. In my opinion, individuals are responsible for their own actions or inactions, and looking at religion is pretty much a waste of time. for every muslim you know that has caused problems -- oh wait, let me correct that -- for every muslim you claim you know and claim to have caused problems, i know a muslim that hasn't.

that they always blame others for their own cultural and educational failure and think they are the most prominent victim of other cultures that human history does know of

actually, most people i know, muslim or otherwise, blame others for their own failure. just look at your own countries recent history -- if we use your mode of thinking, we'd hold all germans responsible for the actions of a few. but we don't, do we? do you?

secondly, i think it's pretty hilarious that you use W Churchill to make your arguments -- the last of the great colonialists. why don't you quote what he had to say about germany, too?

ignoring the massive destruction of foreign cultures that Islam has caused (and defends until today) - the biggest, greatest, longest-lasting and most successful history of military conquest, land-taking and culture-annihilating that is recorded in the books of history.

well, like you said, it's history, and most people i know accept that. but you don't. why don't you put your hypercritical eye on the things other cultures have done? or would that mean there would need to be some self-criticism? i mean, look at what your "superior" culture has done in the last 100+ years, let alone in 500 years ago.

anyway, i don't particularly want to get in another argument with you -- we've gone over this again and again in the past -- i just want to know why, just for personal enlightenment, why do islam and immigrants rub you the wrong way so badly?

[MH]

zakir naik: International preacher of islamist hate

zakir naik

from: The global muslim brotherhood daily report
the federation of student islamic societies (fosis) in the uk and ireland has issued a statement condemning the decision by the home office to ban dr zakir naik from visiting the uk. According to the fosis announcement:
the federation of student islamic societies (fosis) in the uk and eire today criticised the decision by the home office to ban dr zakir naik from visiting the uk.
faisal hanjra, president of fosis, said today, “this is an individual who is a widely-respected household-name for many muslims in the uk. He has carried out a significant amount of work in india to reach out to both the muslim and non-muslim communities and he has a truly global following. Crucially here, his stance vis a vis terrorism is clear – he condemns it and has done so categorically. His banning by the home office is shocking.”
he further added, “the campaign by right wing think tanks and media outlets has unfortunately paid off. For the home secretary this is a shocking own goal. We hear time and again the cry of freedom of speech and freedom of expression, this event strikingly illustrates once again that it is one rule for the muslim community and another rule for everyone else. We will strongly oppose these moves to ban legitimate speakers from entering the uk, and we will work tirelessly to increase their profiles in our communities until our government starts acting with some commonsense.”
canadian media has reported on some of the incendiary comments that have been made by dr. Naik who was also banned from entering canada:
an indian muslim televangelist who was banned from britain last week for “unacceptable behaviour” will not be allowed into canada to speak at an upcoming conference in toronto, sources familiar with the situation have told the national post.
dr. Zakir naik, who has said “every muslim should be a terrorist” and that jews are “our staunchest enemy,” was to headline next month’s journey of faith conference — which is billed as one of north america’s largest islamic conferences and is expected to attract upward of 10,000 people.
dr. Naik, the mumbai-based founder of peace tv and a widely respected lecturer in india, has a laundry list of views that could have led to his exclusion from the u.k. And canada, both of which require an indian citizen to obtain a visitor visa.
the 44-year-old medical doctor recommends capital punishment for homosexuals and the death penalty for those who abandon islam as their faith.
he has said that a man is “lightly,” though in a july 2009 youtube video he cautioned against hitting her on the face or leaving a mark.
the “keep zakir naik out of canada” facebook group, which was launched over the weekend, also points out his view that western women make themselves “more susceptible to rape” by wearing revealing clothing.
among the chief reasons, british home secretary theresa may decided to quash dr. Naik’s u.k. Speaking tour later this month, however, were comments he made in a widely circulated .
“if [osama bin laden] is fighting the enemies of islam, i am for him … if he is terrorizing a terrorist, if he is terrorizing america the terrorist, the biggest terrorist, i am with him,” said dr. Naik, who has delivered hundreds of talks in india, canada, the u.s. And the middle east. “every muslim should be a terrorist.”
a report by the center for social cohesion that outlined the muslim brotherhood ties of the federation of student islamic societies in the u.k. And ireland (fosis), founded in 1962 and described as an umbrella grouping of most major university islamic societies in the u.k. The report concluded that iscc’s (campus islamic societies) and fosis members are more likely to hold intolerant views:
significant minorities of muslim students – and particularly younger ones – support violence in the name of islam, endorse punishing muslim apostates “in accordance with the sharia” and believe that men and women are not equal in the eyes of allah and should not be treated equally.
comparable minorities, around 10 percent of muslim students, also have little or no respect for jews, atheists or homosexuals and support islamist proposals such as re-creating the caliphate, introducing sharia law to britain and establishing an islamic political party. Sizable numbers, between 20 and 30 percent of muslim students, also hold intolerant attitudes towards minority forms of islam such as shi’ism and sufism.
the report additionally suggests that active members of islamic societies are more likely than other muslim students to hold such intolerant views – notwithstanding that active isoc members are also more likely to believe that democracy and re-interpreting the sharia are compatible with islam. Isoc leaders and former members make up the membership of the federation of student islamic societies (fosis).
however, as only a minority of muslim students are active members of isocs, fosis’ claims to represent british muslim students should be treated with caution. Treating fosis as representative of all muslim students risks disproportionately empowering a small number of highly conservative, and sometimes islamist, individuals at the expense of ordinary muslims.
at the same time, a significant minority of non-muslims polled had a hostile view of islam, being less respectful towards muslims than towards other minorities such as jews, homosexuals and atheists. Non-muslims are also more likely to believe that the narrow and intolerant interpretations of islam promoted by islamist and conservative groups represent the “true” islam: For example, more than half of non-muslims polled believe that islam favours inequitable treatment of women and is incompatible with secularism. This strongly suggests that islamist groups and the ideas they promote are partly responsible for the intolerance found on campuses towards muslim students and their religion.
the poll results also indicate that a large proportion of muslim students, up to 40 percent depending on the question, are undecided on key issues such as the legitimacy of religious violence, respecting others and whether islam is compatible with secularism.
it should be noted that as discussed in an earlier post, that umar farouk abdulmutallab, who has been charged with attempting to blow up a u.s. Airliner in 2009, was president of the islamic society at university college london between 2006 and 2007.

***

An Open Letter to All Practising Muslims

By Al-Mansur

(Re-Post: Previously published on September 25, 2002)

I was just wondering ……….
1) Hypothetically speaking, if I have you decapitated for not sharing my beliefs and views, thereafter taking possession of your property, violate your wife (in fact, I may just have sexual intercourse with her within 24 hours of your decapitation, if she happens to be a beautiful 17 year old Jewess) and bring up your children to hate and ridicule you as well as your beliefs and to think that your death was perfectly justified as it was ordered by some person known as the Merciful a.k.a the Compassionate (like some sort of sick joke), is that perfectly alright with you? Kindly explain if your answer is in the negative.
Would your answer be different, if you only thought that your beliefs are right whereas I KNOW that only I am right?

2) Muslims always say that “ISLAM IS THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION IN THE WORLD”. As Christianity is currently the ‘largest’ religion in the world, this would mean that at least some point in time Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the world. Does this mean that Christianity is still the one true religion OR was it only the one true religion during the centuries when it was the fastest growing?
Since in the early and mid 20th century, atheism was the fastest growing “belief” in the world, does that mean that there was no God during those decades?
If pork consumption becomes the fastest growing dietary trend in the world, does that mean that God is trying to tell mankind that pork is God’s choice of meat?

3) Do you think that apostates from Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism who embrace Islam should be killed by their former fellow coreligionists?
If your answer is in the negative, please explain in not more than 50 words why converts to Islam should be treated differently from apostates of Islam.

4) Since an enormous mosque has been built in Rome, the heart of Catholicism, would you advise/encourage the Pope to have a cathedral of a similar size be constructed in Mecca to cement and nurture ties between Catholicism and Islam, the world’s most peaceful and tolerant religion?
Would your answer be any different, if the purpose of having the Cathedral built in Mecca is not to nurture ties, but to propagate Christianity in the same manner and extent as what Muslims are doing in the West?

5) If there were books and other materials published/distributed or made available in your country which advocates violence against Muslims and is blasphemous to Islam, do you agree that it should be banned?
If you happened to be a peace-loving and tolerant Muslim, would your answer be any different, if these books and materials advocates violence and war against Jews, Christians and Pagans ONLY and is only blasphemous to these religions (e.g. attacking the very fundamentals of Christianity such Jesus was not the Son of God and he never died on the cross)?

6) Do you agree that on 9/11 it was “ISLAM WHICH WAS HIJACKED” as most American Muslims claim? [Personally I think it was Humanity which has been hijacked by Islam, not that my opinion counts]
If your answer is in the affirmative, I would presume that Allah would naturally sent these HIJACKERS OF ISLAM to Hell. Right?
Question : How do you think Allah should deal with the hundreds of thousands who cheered, celebrated, danced on the streets, shoot in the air after they saw ISLAM BEING HIJACKED on 9/11?
Please let me know your thoughts. Your views on the above matter are highly appreciated.
Best Wishes to All
Al-Mansur

[caspofungin]

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

first, sky, i know all about the "nasty things" you bitch about, having lived in various bits of the middle east for half my life. you go on and on blaming a religion for all kinds of things

No - I blame religion, and islam, for the content of it's teachings and the fruits of it's education that show in the state of it'S culture and places. The state of the Muslim world in the modern era is nothing that earns our respect - churchill has described it absolutely exactly, and his words still match the realities that I have seen in several Muslim countries. the Muslim world still acts and think by standards of medieval thinking. That is more than one millenia of stagnation. No wonder that the West has become the power to drive forward the world in science, tehcnology, freedom and human rights. sometimes our ancestors failed, sometimes even terribly - we admit that, we are aware of that, we have apologized for that. In Muslim countries,most of the time I met neither admitting faults in Islam, nur apoligies - but denial of the many damages and deformations caused to others and caused to themselves. like you deny it, too.

-- but to me there's no difference between you and someone who uses religion as an excuse for their actions. In my opinion, individuals are responsible for their own actions or inactions, and looking at religion is pretty much a waste of time.

Be careful, you "Muslim" - I have been in Muslim places where they would chase you away and even would want to kill you for heretic statements like that. In accordance with the quran they would! .

for every muslim you know that has caused problems -- oh wait, let me correct that -- for every muslim you claim you know and claim to have caused problems, i know a muslim that hasn't.

Let me make one thing clear - what a Muslim is, to me, and foir any reasonable understanding of the term as well. I prefer the term Muhammedanism, it is academically more precise, since every teaching and scripture in islam - even what people believe to know about Allah - is inspired and/or came from the mouth of Muhammad. No Muhammad - no Allah (that'S why "Allahism" would be less precise). the term "Muhammedanism" is neither offending, nor distracting. It is simply true, and precise. Islam claims you already are Muslim/Muhammedan if you have been born as a child of a Muhammedan father. In other words: Islam claims possession over you from birth on, you have no word in it, since later you cannot withdraw wihtiout risking to get murdered for that (in accordance with the official scirpture). I refuse to accept or respect this practice, not in this and not in any other religion. Muhameddan you are if you confess to a certain ideology and dogma, by adult, unmanipulated educated decision, and the dogma you confess to being fixiated in the Quran. the Quran and nothing else defines what Isalm is. No Quran - no Islam, no muslim identity.

many Muslims indeed may reject parts of the Quran, or refuse it alltogether. But then they must ask themselves why they still insist of being labelled "muslim". Muslim is no independent cultural identity, nor is it an ethnicity. They claim to be muslim just because they have been born to a Muslim father? That makes no sense, that is mixing relgious ideology with ethnicity. Their skin colour and ethnciity is completely unaffected from whether they are muslim or christian or atheist or whatever.

Many muslims-that-are-no-muslims may indeed support the Western understanding of terms like freedom, human rights, coexistence. But if they do so, they must check themselves for whether they are supporting quranic ideas and a thinking tradition that is opposing the former mentioned Western concepts - or not. If they support the Quranic view of things, then they cannot claim to support the western view of things at the same time, those constitutionally guaranteed rights and freedoms of ours, because the Western culture and the Quran are incompatible and their concepts are antagonistic to each other, to put it mildly. If these people however indeed support the Western view, and reject the quranic dogma and thinking of things, then they are no longer Muslim. If then they are willing to integrate in our home countries, if they choose to come here, then I have little porblem with them. Actually, some of such people have been friends for me.

You may want to consider this complicated implication when telling me about Muslims that you know and that you assume I know. I judge it by the Quran - it's views, it's spirit is the criterion to define what Muslim is and what not - nothing else.

some things simply do not go together. Liberal tyranny. Democratic fascism. Humanistic Stalinism. Euro-islam - as if there could be a balance between totalitarianism and medieval superstition, and humanism, democracy, freedom in western understanding. an islam becoming compatible with these concpets, necessarily will not be any islam anymore, but something totally different that needs to be labelled different, therefore, and does not maintain connections to the Quran or Sharia.

There was a pirate in the Baltic, some centuries ago during the era of the Hanse alliance, Klaus Störtebeker, famous figure over here, pushed into mythological overdrive as well, like Robin Hood. His motto was "Niemandes Freund, aller Welts Feind." - Nobody's friend, all world's enemy. I have fully adapted that motto to be the best, shortest characterisation of how islam meets other cultures that are not itself- with supremacism, intolerance, aggression, totalitarian claim for dominance. And if I check that with history, along all it's contact lines with the foreign world and foreign cultures the islamic world stands in flames and have brought conflict and unrest upon others. No other religion or political ideology has caused and still causes so much trouble. And i say that with also the third Reich, the crusades and the tyranny of the Catholic church on my mind. The Islamic global "project" outclasses them all in range and longevity.

actually, most people i know, muslim or otherwise, blame others for their own failure. just look at your own countries recent history -- if we use your mode of thinking, we'd hold all germans responsible for the actions of a few. but we don't, do we? do you?

secondly, i think it's pretty hilarious that you use W Churchill to make your arguments -- the last of the great colonialists. why don't you quote what he had to say about germany, too?

Because I am not about Germany in this thread, but Islam. Simple, isn't it!? He said a lot of true things about the Germany of his time, too, though. Feel free to make a thread on that.

well, like you said, it's history, and most people i know accept that. but you don't.

I accept history for what it is. And ongoing things in the present as what they are. I refuse forging any of them, where I am aware of the forgery. Your social circle is no argument here. One of the things I also have learned about muslim culture (and radical christian fundamentalists and creationists ) is that there hardly are any other that are of so very selective perception of history, as these two; always filtering out what is not in line with the official self-description of Islam as being right, shining and noble, even destroying archeologic evidence proving that the relgious dogma is wrong. History gets forged so very massively - both regarding what is taught in history books, and also in destroying and supressing historic artefacts, monuments, and other material substrates of historic events Islam wants not need to deal with for they are too challenging to it's claimed inner identity.

The motive of "supression" meets you so very often in islam: supression of women, supression of history, supression of sexual drives, supression of critical thinking, supression of criticism, supression of science that tries to adress existential wuestions for which only the Quran claims to be the only valid authority... All that inner tension does not simply dissapear. That islamic history and the islamic world is so much characterised by aggression to the inside as well as the outside, is not by random chance. Add to this the suprerssion of the sons by the patriarchalic fathers, whcih also is a dominant motive in ME societies, et voila... Lots of stockpiled inner tensions and aggressions seeking relief, and finding them all to often in dealing with females, and supervising them. I know family therapists who say that in Muslim famaily they are confronted as often by islam-caused probelsm as well as by tyrannic father-sopn family structures that pull down all the rest of the family as well. Islam is a problem - patriarchalism also is, especially in it's form of tribal cultures.

as one female Muslim writer put it: the Islamoic world is in desparte need of a sexual revolution. And that is both damn true, and very courageous a thing to say - she is living in hiding now, for her life is at risk.

why don't you put your hypercritical eye on the things other cultures have done?

the failures of others do not make the failures and the inhumane ideology of aggressive history of Islam any smaller.

or would that mean there would need to be some self-criticism? i mean, look at what your "superior" culture has done in the last 100+ years, let alone in 500 years ago.

This debate on history we have had several times in the past ten years, from grenada over India and Byzanz to inquisition and crusades. And I do not want to rewrite it all again, just this: no other religious dogma and political ideology has caused so many internal civil wars, like islam. no other has caused so many wars and war-like aggressions to the outside. no other has caused so many purely religiously ambitioned wars. no other causes so many daily deaths in terror, riots, progroms, civil wars even in the present. and different to islam today, the West has admitted past mistakes, learned from them, apologised for them. the Muslim world is committing it's errors and violence until today - for the very same motives like already in - the medieval. Can't see us europeans still supporting slave trade in africa (a Musolim invention, btw). Can't see France and germany and England waging wars in europe over excessive nationalism and supremacism, or Christian faith. Can't see us not thinling critical of colonialism and apartheid.

We have moved on, not without setbacks, sometimes fast, sometimes, slow, but from century to century we were better off than before, saw our culture blossoming a bit more. - Islam got it's head stuck in the arse of history, 1400 years deep. And being so alone deep in there and feeling lonely in the dark, it has turned fatalistic whining and always accusing others for one's own failures into a form of creative art. We psychologists call that behavior tactic a "projection", btw. I admit, it works wonders. Eurppeans love to fall back from unvalid claims and demands made by Muslim communities who say they are offended and discirminated.

Islam declares all females humans of lesser value, and all non-muslims as candidates for enforced converting, or execution, and every year commits progroms and even huge genocides over ethnic and religious motives in Africa and SE Asia - and complains about claimed racism of the others...?

anyway, i don't particularly want to get in another argument with you -- we've gone over this again and again in the past -- i just want to know why, just for personal enlightenment, why do islam and immigrants rub you the wrong way so badly?

Because I spend several years to read the Quaran, literature on Islamic history and scripture, and find islam disgusting by its very own claims and scriptures and content, and correlating all that with my experiences in various countries during extensive offroad-traveling, both private and professional trips. Travelling between North Africa and the middle East, and europe, often made me think of it as "time travels". The culture clash between West and Islam, last but not least is a clash of different ages, too, a clash of time eras: modern present vs medieval.

Regarding immigrants, we have immigrants from many different places here. and for some reason - maybe the education Muslims have enjoyed from their Islamic culture and teaching? - immigrants from africa, south America, north America, europe, russia, Asia, for some reason do not cause us any problems, not culturally and not criminologically, but the ones that give us troubles where-ever they form bigger than small communities and subcultures in the west, are Muslim immigrants. So keep both groups separate, please, else you offend the non-Muslims immigrants over the mess the muslim immigrants cause all to often. I insist on Islam accepting responsibility for cultural shockwaves it creates by its very ideology and content, and the cultural climate that derives from that. and I save neither you nor anyone else defending Islam from pointing these things out. Our problem in europe is not "migrants". Our problems almost exclusively are caused by MUSLIM migrants - not the Koreans, not the chinese, not the Japanese, not the Australians or Canadians, not the Kenians or Kongolese (?) or southafricans, not the brasilians or Mexicans, not the French or Russians or Poles or Spanish or italians or Greek - but the Muslims from various different countries, especially turkey, Albania, Afghanistan, Pakistan (in France also Algerians etc). Our financial statistics say so, our sociological statistics prove it, our criminologist statistics show it. the overrepresentation is statistically highly significant. Sometimes we talk of ranges covering several factors.

The problem is the Quran, it's content, the cultural climate that it has created, and the thinking and attitude that it educates. This affects the way people think of integration (or better: non-integration), and accepting responsibility for themselves and their deeds. The educational climate in Quran-influenced traditions is simply the most influential, most enduring, most totalitarian, most supremacist disaster in the history of human cultures. and as I often have said before, thinking of "Islam" and not including the Quran, is like thinking of "christianity" without a "Christ" or a new testament wothout the four gospels. it's not only absurd - it is completely pointless.

I believe in the "reforming of islam" like I believe in the democratisation of fascism - it is utopic. islam must not be reformed - it must be replaced - for the wellbeing of us "infidels" as well as muslims in muslim countries. We suffer from your intolerance and aggression and constant demands for special rights and special status, you suffer from your own stagnation and impotence that denied you the skill to become masters of your own fate in the modern era. saving you from these sharp criticism like I summarise them, will do nothing good for you, or for us, just give you an excuse to not start thinking critically about yourself and to not question your history objectively and to not start imagining if maybe you better should change some basic, important things. What Europe and it's ambilavent relation with the church went through in centuries and centuries of dark eras, you still must go through. But as long as you Muslims do not even see the need to get started, you simply will remain to be what you are and have been since centuries: a problem for everybody else around you, the bully of the block, the source of constant tension and conflict and in the modern present: terror as well. I am voicing these criticism and accusation not to offend, but because this "conflict-therapy" is the only chance to get some alternative thinking started. If no pressure is put on you muslim people to look at yourself, then you will never do. And while it is only some people only who actually actively do bad or aggressive stuff (but in growing numbers), it is the so very silent, so overwhelmin big majority that does not stop these people who act in their name, hidden in their middle, and by that these many silent passive people nevertheless are guilty of giving a silently agreed legitimation to it. Even a passive "Mitläufer" (follower, hanger-on) must accept his share of responsibility, just claiming he does not love those in power is not enough - a very German lesson, learned the very hard way.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

In my opinion, individuals are responsible for their own actions or inactions, and looking at religion is pretty much a waste of time. for every muslim you know that has caused problems -- oh wait, let me correct that -- for every muslim you claim you know and claim to have caused problems, i know a muslim that hasn't.

What about that police report here from Germany that makes it clear that Muslim males are over proportionally violent and criminal than ANY other ethnicity in Germany? That is not just a random claim but empirical proven.

actually, most people i know, muslim or otherwise, blame others for their own failure. just look at your own countries recent history -- if we use your mode of thinking, we'd hold all germans responsible for the actions of a few. but we don't, do we? do you?

Would you have held them responsible while they entered your country and started behaving like the "master race"?

secondly, i think it's pretty hilarious that you use W Churchill to make your arguments -- the last of the great colonialists. why don't you quote what he had to say about germany, too?

Well, what's wrong with his views on Islam?

Originally Posted by Winston

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

What's wrong with that? Even here in Germany a lot of Muslims are treating their wives like their property. Of course not all of them do, but it is definitely not a rare occasion here.

Originally Posted by Winston

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

What was the last technological improvement that was made by a Muslim nation that has not just been copied? (I'm really curious about that one as I know of none but that doesn't mean that there really haven't been a few, so if you know of something important I really would like to know).

Originally Posted by Winston

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

Again, what's wrong with it? Did Islam spread quickly and often by force? I think it did. Would it have stopped before taking over Europe without being repelled militarily? I don't think so.

well, like you said, it's history, and most people i know accept that. but you don't. why don't you put your hypercritical eye on the things other cultures have done? or would that mean there would need to be some self-criticism? i mean, look at what your "superior" culture has done in the last 100+ years, let alone in 500 years ago.

No, it's not history unfortunately. It's still going on. Sometimes using force (like Sudan) and sometimes by demographic change ( like in Europe).
I really don't get why some people always insist on playing the "But your culture did that too" card. Yes, we conquered, we murdered, we suppressed. Does that mean we should allow everyone on this planet to do the very same BS too? I don't understand the logic in that.

anyway, i don't particularly want to get in another argument with you -- we've gone over this again and again in the past -- i just want to know why, just for personal enlightenment, why do islam and immigrants rub you the wrong way so badly?

Well, this wasn't directed at me but maybe you are interested in my version as well.
I don't see the Islamic culture as on par with our values and our constitution. I simply don't like it to have 4 million people here with a faith that is proven to spawn more criminals than any other group here, that keeps demanding more and more and who's leaders have more or less openly declared war on our culture. I feel invaded. I usually don't count myself to the right wing (I've no problems with most foreigners here and have some non German friends as well) but with Islam I really see a threat to our nation (and Europe as a whole). We have almost no benefit from having them here but a lot of disadvantages (criminals, social welfare recipients). The average Muslim here performs way worse than immigrants from ANY other ethnicity.
Why should I be glad that they are here?

*cross post with Skybird*

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

What about that police report here from Germany that makes it clear that Muslim males are over proportionally violent and criminal than ANY other ethnicity in Germany? That is not just a random claim but empirical proven.

Or repeated statistical findings over the past three or four years showing that in England and Germany the young third generation muslim migrants are more orthodox than their grandparents ever had been who originally came to these our countries? Or the representative findings showing that between - hope I rember the numbers correctly - 20 and 40% of the younger people accept violence if that is needed to impose Sharia on German and English societies? that amongst Muslim boys and girls a representative examination showed that half of them fully accept and desire a submissive social role for women, and that violence should be used by males to govern females - and that Muslim young males find it cool to f#ck german infidel sluts, becaseu, so they said, that bsi what infidel sluts are there for - but that they would fall back to their right of blood revenge if somebody would do that with thei sister, or if their sister would behave in a modern way that does not fit Islamic/patriarchalic patterns? Or the year-for- year repeated warnings of the intelligence service in Germany, namely the BVS, of the unconstitutional goals and activities of muslim communities and nationalistic turkish organisation and Saudi-payed "culture-centres", including the king Fahd Academy (known to be a hotspot for hate preaching and radicalisation of muslims and stroing hints that it is engaged in assistsing in terror logistics as well? Warnings the experts and professional insiders of police and intel repeat time and again in more and more urgent tone - just to get ignored and overruled by politicians to scared to accept and adress the presence of these threats?



Beside the criminological statoisztics and aspects, there is the burden uneducated social low class migrants put on the social wellfare system. such migration is not a relif to our social system that is under demograophic stress, but it adds to the future costs, it does not ease them.While there are burgeouse famiolies of Muslimfaith coming, from Iran for example, Muslims migrants of middle or higher social class and with good qualification are a minority, and not a big one. in very many muslim families of social low class, the resistence to adequate integration and education is high, which means no future perspective for jobs - not to mention academically highly qualified jobs with good wages and good tax returns. a new subcultural, resistent-to-integration, hostile-to-the-constitution precarity gets artifically created here. And it already has started to cost us dearly, although this is not much compared to things to come. We need well-edcuated, integration-willing, acadmeically trained migrants with good qualification - we do not need just any migrant there is. but if I were a well-trained, academically edcuated migrant - why the hell should I choose to go to germany where the future is grim, and almost 51% of my income gets collected by the state in taxes and social insurrances - tendency growing for the coming 20 years, when few and fewer employees must finance more and more old people? (so says a statistic they reported today: since today, the Geman average employee works for his own pocket.the days before in the first half of the year he worked to see his wages completes taken by the state). Germany is a very bad place to raise a family. If you want to do that: run, run, run.

some years ago, Indian specialists came in some numbers, well-trained computer specialists and programmer (the Indians are good at this stuff). Problem is they realised what show is running here - and for the most they left again.

[tater]

All religious literalism rubs ME the wrong way.

Don't get me wrong, I have several expensive carpets, and I love middle eastern food, and north african architecture, too. Other than that? Na, nothing I can think of to keep.

I'm just as harsh on creationist christians, and other religious kooks.

When creationist christian kooks start flying planes into buildings, I'll get more harsh on THEM, too.

Be careful, you "Muslim" - I have been in Muslim places where they would chase you away and even would want to kill you for heretic statements like that. In accordance with the quran they would

Sounds like the sort of people with the same circular logic as Sky uses, all muslims are fundamentalist nuts, if they ain't fundamentalist nuts they ain't muslim as all muslims are fundamentalist nuts.
But isn't it the case that the koran says bugger all about that and what sky is talking about there is one theological schools interpretation of a document that was written several centuries later. Not of course suggesting that there are different theological schools as there is only one islam and it is and always has been the fundamentlist nutty kind, even when it didn't exist.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by tater

All religious literalism rubs ME the wrong way.

Don't get me wrong, I have several expensive carpets, and I love middle eastern food, and north african architecture, too. Other than that? Na, nothing I can think of to keep.

I'm just as harsh on creationist christians, and other religious kooks.

When creationist christian kooks start flying planes into buildings, I'll get more harsh on THEM, too.

Creatinionism is becoming very popular in Islam, too. Birds of same feather flock together.