Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

Originally Posted by msxyz

No, a police force would have come equipped with a different set of body armor (like that used by riot control units which is designed to minimize bash damage), gas grenades, stun batoons, etc...

Giving paintball guns or rubber bullets to soldiers is a pretty stupid thing. The moment they realize an angry mob is not stopping to the threat of being hit with some rubber balls they will switch to standard 'man stopper' bullets.

Besides, knowing the usual environment in which these commanods operate it was clear it would end this way. They are trained to fight in close quarters against guerilla units and irregulars disguised as innocent civilians or hiding behind them. They're trained to expect a booby trap right around every corner. In this cases, a split second could make the difference between life and death. That's why they're trained to shoot first and ask later.

It was the wrong military unit to send searching those ships.

You're disturbing a hornet nest. Israel didn't sign any nuclear weapon act, despite its nuclear arsenal is the worst kept secret in the world. Despite this, it's not considered a 'rogue state'. Talk about double standards...

Yes it is true. Israel's nuclear weapons are tolerated because, well they just are. Better not ask questions.

Btw, great post!

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by eskachig

I have never, ever, seen a naval boarding team from any nations arrive in riot gear. I'm not even sure there is a variant suitable for navy warfare. Anyway, they did come with some non-lethal options apparently, but the situation outgrew them.

Well yes, cops switch to their sidearms in this situation as well. It's not just common sense, it's what you're trained and expected to do.


These are naval special forces, they are trained to board hostile vessels. Which this was. There was no shooting first and asking later, in fact once shooting started everything stopped right away. You can watch it on the video, the order of events is quite clear. There is a long beating before any shots are fired, but within seconds of opening fire the military has control of the situation.

Clearly the vessel should've been boarded in a more aggressive manner, but that's beside the point.

excellent posts Eskachig, welcome to our little forum.

Originally Posted by Zachstar

They had raised the white flag video shows it happening before most of the violence happened. Now Israel is in a heap of trouble and its operation in Gaza is under more scrutiny then ever. Quick PR defence and the usual "Support Israel or we label you something bad" statements arent going to work here.

Now turkey says its going to send the navy with them next time? What is Israel going to do? Land a commando unit on a combat navy vessel and it will be wiped out within moments. Followed likely by a vampire US is not going to help Israel fight againt a war it starts in international waters. That would leave them open to attack from its neighbors. Its defensive situation just went from crap to utter ****

True but hey, what are you going to do. It's not like Israel is bound by the same rules that bound the rest of the world, even the US. By violence and threats etc. they force their will on the world. The very definition of a rogue nation.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Hey, Internet tough guys, how about we got back on topic for a change, ok?

Ok.

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Yes it is true. Israel's nuclear weapons are tolerated because, well they just are. Better not ask questions.

Guess not then.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by eskachig

First, metal pipes are a lethal force. If you come at a cop with a metal pipe you will be shot, I'm serious. They're not even going to bother with the tazer. The proper counter to a club or a pipe (or a knife) is another lethal weapon.

What law? There are laws that say that it's not legal to interfere with legitimate shipping (though blockade runners are typicall excluded), but there is no inherent right to repulse such attempts with force. You can either treat it as a criminal action and bring legal challenges, or you can treat it as an act of war - in which case the people on the ship are either civilians if they are peaceful, or combatants if they are not.

That is just silly. Though in general I think that soldiers in general can be legally killed. Of course, if you try you become a combatant and they can kill you legally as well. That's what war is for the most part - soldiers getting killed is tragic but it's not illegal.

Israel has a long way to go to become that, though I expect far more out of a functioning democracy anyhow. This is a PR blow for them, no doubt, but I think you'll find that things continue as they are.

So? Israelis are willing to defend their land, and they are pretty good at it. Really, that's all it takes to make a state. Why is France France? Because Frenchmen bled for a thousand years to hold on to that piece of dirt. No other reason.

No, I generally refrain from fighting people from the internet. I was simply saying that a pipe is a decent hand to hand weapon when you can't use firearms. Your "had I been there..." comment is why I called you a tough guy.

I'm not Jewish dude, not even slightly. But your attitude is pretty weird really, I feel bad for a lot of Jews. I feel bad for a lot of Russians too, being one, and Germans as well, and Palestinians, and Somali, etc. Most people who get hurt are just regular folks trying to live a life. Amazing concept huh?

What kind of proof would you like? Guidelines for use of lethal force from any police department in the country would clear use of guns in this situation. I honestly think it would be more interesting if you produced something that recommends against lethal force when enveloped by an armed mob.


The question of breaking the law is debatable. But seriously, nobody wanted to kill anyone, the Israelis would've much preferred things went peacefully as they did with the other ships. And regardless of why boarding was initiated, once it did the commandos had no choice other than lethal self defense, hence not murder.

I like this guy.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by msxyz

The moment they realize an angry mob is not stopping to the threat of being hit with some rubber balls they will switch to standard 'man stopper' bullets.

Umm... yeah. What do you expected them to do? Would you stand around and take the beating, possibly all the way until you're dead? I think not.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Skybird

No comment.

Reported, for whatever it is worth.

nothing we did not know already.

Originally Posted by Fincuan

I doubt they had planned for that kind of result given the pepper guns and all. The pre-planned "low risk" option just went south due to the heavier than expected resistance onboard.

Well we don't know this now do we? The oldest trick in the book is to attack and draw a low level attack on oneself and then respond with 'righteous' deadly force. "You all saw it, they attacked first". Unfortunately in the court of law it's not a question of who attacks first, it's a question of what the damages are and then passing sentence based on that.

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

I don't feel bad for any Israeli people, or Jews for that matter, now or ever. You're all clearly a bunch of murderous, law breaking criminals and murderers.

Please check any anti-semitism you may have at the door. It's wrong. It's stupid too, as it just ends up providing cover to Israel by giving them an easy way to dismiss criticism.

Oh dear, it appears the fall out is gathering.
It looks like the Isreali cabinet is rather annoyed that not only did the military deliver a PR disaster, but also that they went and launched the operation without getting the needed approval from the Israeli government.

Unfortunately in the court of law it's not a question of who attacks first, it's a question of what the damages are and then passing sentence based on that.

Not on planet earth, come and visit sometime.

Originally Posted by AngusJS

Please check any anti-semitism you may have at the door. It's wrong. It's stupid too, as it just ends up providing cover to Israel by giving them an easy way to dismiss criticism.

I notice you seem to be completely ok with the "story of patriotism" - thread where at the moment there is a very lively debate going on about the demise of the white race (?).

But just to please you, I'll chance all critique I might have about Israel and zionist politics into race based hatred of people with darker skintone then mine.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

Please check any anti-semitism you may have at the door. It's wrong. It's stupid too, as it just ends up providing cover to Israel by giving them an easy way to dismiss criticism.

OTH is just the type of person those ships were full off.

So stop finding excuses for them all.

Communists, Anarchists and Islamists have this perverse union in Europe but it should tell people what they are about.

Neal should pass OTH:s Ip to the Finnish security police, just in case.

Originally Posted by Happy Times

OTH is just the type of person those ships were full off.

So stop finding excuses for them all.

Communists, Anarchists and Islamists have this perverse union in Europe but it should tell people what they are about.

Neal should pass OTH:s Ip to the Finnish security police, just in case.

I think they might be more interested in your IP.

[Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

True but hey, what are you going to do. It's not like Israel is bound by the same rules that bound the rest of the world, even the US. By violence and threats etc. they force their will on the world. The very definition of a rogue nation.

Rules and the government of Israel are two different things. What happened to the "investigations" about forged passports in Dubai scandal?

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

I think they might be more interested in your IP.

They have already checked me with my own permission.