Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

[eskachig]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

How exactly? By having the right to defend against violence with lethal force if necessary which wasn't used btw?

First, metal pipes are a lethal force. If you come at a cop with a metal pipe you will be shot, I'm serious. They're not even going to bother with the tazer. The proper counter to a club or a pipe (or a knife) is another lethal weapon.

Which they were entitled to do according to law whereas the invaders are clearly in breach of all laws, maritime and other.

What law? There are laws that say that it's not legal to interfere with legitimate shipping (though blockade runners are typicall excluded), but there is no inherent right to repulse such attempts with force. You can either treat it as a criminal action and bring legal challenges, or you can treat it as an act of war - in which case the people on the ship are either civilians if they are peaceful, or combatants if they are not.

The Israeli commandos can be described as murderers, aggressors and genocidists who can be legally killed.

That is just silly. Though in general I think that soldiers in general can be legally killed. Of course, if you try you become a combatant and they can kill you legally as well. That's what war is for the most part - soldiers getting killed is tragic but it's not illegal.

The attack was against all laws, which is why Netanyahu is begging for mercy in global media right now. Not that this will stop the swift dealing of justice against Israel, the most murderous country of Middle East.

Israel has a long way to go to become that, though I expect far more out of a functioning democracy anyhow. This is a PR blow for them, no doubt, but I think you'll find that things continue as they are.

The whole world wants Israel to sieze to exist.

So? Israelis are willing to defend their land, and they are pretty good at it. Really, that's all it takes to make a state. Why is France France? Because Frenchmen bled for a thousand years to hold on to that piece of dirt. No other reason.

What you want a piece of me? If you want to avoid defensive action you should not take part in murderous operations which may very well lead to retaliations.

No, I generally refrain from fighting people from the internet. I was simply saying that a pipe is a decent hand to hand weapon when you can't use firearms. Your "had I been there..." comment is why I called you a tough guy.

I don't feel bad for any Israeli people, or Jews for that matter, now or ever. You're all clearly a bunch of murderous, law breaking criminals and murderers.

I'm not Jewish dude, not even slightly. But your attitude is pretty weird really, I feel bad for a lot of Jews. I feel bad for a lot of Russians too, being one, and Germans as well, and Palestinians, and Somali, etc. Most people who get hurt are just regular folks trying to live a life. Amazing concept huh?

Proof?

What kind of proof would you like? Guidelines for use of lethal force from any police department in the country would clear use of guns in this situation. I honestly think it would be more interesting if you produced something that recommends against lethal force when enveloped by an armed mob.

And murder people and break the law. I get it.

The question of breaking the law is debatable. But seriously, nobody wanted to kill anyone, the Israelis would've much preferred things went peacefully as they did with the other ships. And regardless of why boarding was initiated, once it did the commandos had no choice other than lethal self defense, hence not murder.

Originally Posted by eskachig

No, I generally refrain from fighting people from the internet. I was simply saying that a pipe is a decent hand to hand weapon when you can't use firearms. Your "had I been there..." comment is why I called you a tough guy.

Well what then? Just speak in clear terms so I can understand you, I think I made myself very clear. I'm not running away from anyone, you least of all. So...what are you saying? You think you can threaten me like the Israelis are trying to threaten Palestinians?

[eskachig]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Well what then? Just speak in clear terms so I can understand you, I think I made myself very clear. I'm not running away from anyone, you least of all. So...what are you saying? You think you can threaten me like the Israelis are trying to threaten Palestinians?

I am not threatening you, never did, not once. I did call you an internet tough guy, and now you are puffing up your chest and proving me right. Seriously, try to relax and we can go on discussing this rather interesting issue, you're way too worked up.

[Skybird]

No comment.

Reported, for whatever it is worth.

Originally Posted by eskachig

I am not threatening you, never did, not once. I did call you an internet tough guy, and now you are puffing up your chest and proving me right. Seriously, try to relax and we can go on discussing this rather interesting issue, you're way too worked up.

You come here and in your fifth or sixth message start throwing accusations around, maybe you should look at your own behavior instead for a change.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by eskachig

I am not threatening you, never did, not once. I did call you an internet tough guy, and now you are puffing up your chest and proving me right. Seriously, try to relax and we can go on discussing this rather interesting issue, you're way too worked up.

Welcome to SubSim eskachig

I've read your first posts with a keen sense of interest because I have long been a supporter of Israel and her struggle to maintain the right to exist.

Sometimes I struggle with condoning the methods used but always balance it out by making an allowance such as 'you weren't there so how would or should you have reacted' or something along those lines.

Watching this thread develop over time I was honestly struggling to support or justify the actions of Israel but after viewing the video evidence my conclusion is that Israel took a big gamble with international opinion/feeling and once that card had been played they were forced by the actions of the ships inhabitants to take special measures to meet the situation that developed.

Right or wrong initially the end game was probably forced upon them but in hindsight (such a wonderful gift) they should have known how the situation would more than likely escalate.

The General Topics or snake pit as some of the regulars is the place to come for some lively topical debate.

Tis a pity you've been confronted by the 'internet tough guy' so early in your membership but my advice would be to take little or no notice, none here do, he is in fact a constant source of entertainment.

Don't bother posting facts and source links to back up your points because they are usually dismissed by a blinkered opinion.

They've been out of the brig for less than a week and already your the recipient of bullying type statements.

Do a bit research on the boards, you'll soon get the picture.

I guess some people never learn.

Eskachig, don't take any notice of Herring, he lives on a different planet.
Expect a rant about how you are racist followed by a racist attack on how you as a Californian are inferior to most Americans who are inferior to everyone else on earth and are responsible for everything thats wrong in the world or ever has been(unless its the Israelis or Swedes or Russians or French or whichever particular rant takes his fancy).....who are inferior to people from Finland who are inferior to OneToughHerring as they are either from the wrong part of Finland or don't share his own ethnicity or strange level of cognitive disfunction.

[Merchant Raider]

Well his forum name says it all

Hey, Internet tough guys, how about we got back on topic for a change, ok?

According to media sources Israel claims that it sabotaged the engines of some of the ships in the aid convoy in order to stop them from travelling. I wonder why the massacre was necessary in the end then, was it maybe planned ahead?

UN is launching a study into the incident, I wonder if they will be allowed to study the IDF's plans, kinda doubt it.

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

According to media sources Israel claims that it sabotaged the engines of some of the ships in the aid convoy in order to stop them from travelling. I wonder why the massacre was necessary in the end then, was it maybe planned ahead?

If you had read the entire article you'd know: The ship in question was the biggest in the "fleet", with hundreds of passengers onboard, in which case a broken engine would have presented too great a risk and resulted in a massive and complicated rescue attempt.

Originally Posted by Fincuan

If you had read the entire article you'd know: The ship in question was the biggest in the "fleet", with hundreds of passengers onboard, in which case a broken engine would have presented too great a risk and resulted in a massive and complicated rescue attempt.

Yea, a bigger risk then what the IDF threw at them? I kinda doubt it.

[Fincuan]

I doubt they had planned for that kind of result given the pepper guns and all. The pre-planned "low risk" option just went south due to the heavier than expected resistance onboard.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by eskachig

Well, yes. When a group of people without guns attacks a group of people with guns usually some people get shot. Pretty sure that if you had a gun, you would not allow someone to beat you to death over principle. Double so if you have a mission to follow through and your mates in trouble.


Nobody was trying to kill anyone over contraband. Contraband is worth boarding over, not killing. Unconscious comrades bleeding on the ground and a mob with weapons is worth killing over.

It's not practical to enforce a blockade within national waters, as international waters are within speedboat range. If you let ships park twelve miles off-shore, it becomes virtually impossible to interdict the cargo.

Which is why pretty much every other blockade ever has been carried out in international waters.

Look, regardless of the legality of the situation - armed resistance against a military unit will probably result in your death, and that's true everywhere. Soldiers aren't lawyers. What's more, armed resistance against a military force means you're not a civilian. Yes, if a nation is invading yours without UN sanction, that is possibly illegal. But their soldiers shooting you when you come at them with a hunting rifle is not.

You don't understand the realities of either police work or modern military operations. Both are trained to overcome the adrenalin dump of combat and retain judgement and rationality - but soldiers even more so as they face those situations more and the stakes are higher. They have different set of tactical skills, and police work puts a stronger emphasis on people skills and conflict prevention - but in this case nobody got a chance to talk anyway.

What would the cops do, take a longer beating? I think the soldiers should've shot sooner. It's not their job to debate why they are being sent into that situation, and once an angry mob is beating you and your buddies to a pulp and giving every indication of murderous intent, it's time for a lethal response.

Say what you want about the Israelis, but had they not been met with violence this would've been a non-incident, like the five boardings before it.

I think the videos of the incident put that little theory to rest. The first soldier, and a few after him never got a chance to draw any weapons.

Non-lethal options are usually better at preventing violence, or as a preemptive action. In close combat with hand weapons they are generally ineffective. Oh, and jumping off means leaving your people behind to the tender mercies of a rampaging mob.

excellent post Eskachig, totallly agree.

Originally Posted by L.T

No one like terrorists, and the Israeli soldiers actualy did hold back. They initialy only used paintball guns, but was forced to use there sidearm cause of fear of there lives.

The above sounds ok and no one can point any fingers on that. BUT Israel did this in international waters. There blocade are not acceptet by the UN and therefore it is against international law concerning international waters.

If you are ok with it, you have to be ok with the somali pirates, you have to be ok about any ship being boarded anywhere....

If you think its ok and they were just terrorists, you then have to accept that that you have no rights in international waters, NO ONE SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW!

You cant say that its ok what Israel did and then stil demand to be protectet by the law.

All they had to do was to wait so they could intercept in national waters...

If you think its ok and the activists did something wrong by attacking the commandos you have shot down any right to deffend your self...

They were wrong attacking the soldiers, but they had the right to do it BECAUSE THE SHIP WAS IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS!!

Was the convoy a stupid thing? YES
Was the attack on the soldiers a stupid thing? YES

Was the convoy an article 33 convoy? YES
Was the convoy in international waters? YES

Do ANYONE on this planet have the right to deffend there ship in international waters? YES

Is an i-legal boarding in international waters considered piracy? YES

You cant disagree with the Israelis on what they did, they just did it the wrong place...

BTW.
Some talks about it was a leagal action, could those then tell me why the UN are launching an investigation concerning the E-LEAGAL actions by Israel in international waters?? turn on the TV and watch the news...



L.T

Great post, totally agree!

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by eskachig

Well, google brought me to your fine forum, true.

The people in the aid convoy have the right to defend themselves against violence, true, but in this case they initiated it.

Those fine folks did start the violence first you know. They can be described as war casualties, I suppose. Soldiers are shot to death by invaders for legally defending their countries all the time. Still legal. Not that I'm saying the boarding wasn't legal in the first place, which I think it was.

North Korea can do whatever it wants, but its actions, just like Israel's may lead to war with other sovereign states. Does anyone wish to go to war over this? Who?

Thanks mr internet tough guy. A pipe is a pretty decent hand weapon actually, as the legions of folks who've clubbed to death will attest to. Getting hit with a metal pipe is something I'd really like to avoid myself. Of course, if they had firearms we wouldn't even ben talking about this in the first place, and the Israelis would've machine-gunned the ship before touching it.

Well of course they messed up, the operation clearly got out of their control. But at the same time, the people up on deck got the battle they wanted, and I don't feel bad for them, nor do I feel their rights were violated. I do expect some careers taking a hit here though, clear failure to control the situation.

Of course not, but that's not what happened either. Cops in mine, or any other country, would respond with lethal force when faced with same - which these soldiers were. Indeed, cops in US are a good deal more trigger happy.

I don't know whether this blockade makes sense, but while it's in place of course the Israeli military needs to interdict vessels.

excellent post again, totally agree with this also.