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#31 |
Soaring
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Waterboarding IS torture. It is a procedure that not only mentally raises an involuntary fear of death by drowning, but also provokes physical reaction by the body being set into a condition of agony, and additonal painful, convulsive spasms throughout the body that during the procedure is tied down.
If agony and the ultimate physical experience of drowning, which is beyond conscious control by the subject'S mind, is not torture, then NOTHING is torture. Whether or not noticable marks of physical damage are left on or in the body, is not the criterion of torture. You can electroshock people without leaving visible marks. You can torture without breaking bones, cutting flesh and blood flowing. This discussion about laws and paragraphs going on here is alienating, and in a way: frightening. Because it demonstrates exactly the same bureaucratic mindset you have seen in Nazi bureaucrats who with perfidious pedantism kept note and written record of the medical experiments, the orders flowing down the command lines, the crimes and decisions and processes in the killing industry - and often thought that because everything was in order with the written records and evertyhing was taking place in accordance with some written rules and orders of duty, the horrifying results therefor were "okay", too. Many of them defended themselves with saying they were ordered to do this, and that the law was like that. They were unable or unwilling or both to look beyond the law, and question the law itself. Sometimes some people say they are wondering how the Third Reich, and the fanatism of Nazi vasalls, could happen. You must not necessarily look into history to examine that. Looking at events after that, or even the present people today, can provide answers, too. Also, the Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram Experiment are not reserved for German people with Nazi mindsets, too. Hold the discussion for a while. Take a breath. Get back in contact with reality - and realise what it actually is that you talk about and that you think you do justice to when describing it with bureaucratic formalities only.
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#32 | |
Silent Hunter
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Good points, Sky. I only sought to provide a legal definition of torture and a benchmark. I tend to agree with you, and I said as much:
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Some of you may remember the SUBSIM werewolf hunt and were-fish hunt games we played a while back. I'm sure that most of those who particiapted will remember my role in those games. I died in both those games, and even failed to recognize a werewolf under my own nose in time (Oberon), but in both games I successfully identified an enemy before anyone else did. I did that through a combination of threats, deception, politics, and the old carrot-and-stick treatment. Those games were, of course, not reality, and in reality the subject can't kill you, but the theory behind all of my reasoning is quite sound. I learned the theory from Sgt. Purdee, a brilliant but ironically ugly intel Marine. The key in humane interrogation is to divide and conquer, and to control the flow of information. It is a difficult concept to explain, and I can't really elaborate on it within the constraints of text limits, but what you essentially want to do is to pit everyone against everyone else and keep track of who should be thinking what and when, and then find inconsistencies during cross-examination and , for lack of a word "misinformed counter-cross-examination". Anyone remember the "feeler" messages I had them send? That's an example. And there were "false-feeler" messages as well. This is why prisoners are segregated from officers and their fellows during interrogation. Even if they have a preconceived story, they will eventually fail under instense and properly structured questioning, and the truth will lie within the inconsistencies. There really isn't any need for torture if your threats and questioning are effective enough. One just has to be creative. Physical torture is the resort of the stupid and the brutal. A good interrogator can extract any information from anyone without inflicting any physical or lasting mental duress whatsoever. The trick is in getting the right people to do the job.
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#33 |
Navy Seal
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Legalism is all that matters in this case, skybird, otherwise a "comfy chair" is torture, or being forced to listen to, I dunno, "metal" music (blech!)
![]() No matter where the bar is set, and I agree, waterboarding is as close to the edge possible. Note that it's still a matter of how much, and how far apart. Anything that people will have done to themselves voluntarily is not "clear" one way or another to me—but they volunteer to have it done just a few times, not many. So is twice OK, and 3 times torture? <shrug> The US only did it to 3 people, FWIW, and hasn't for several years now. |
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#34 |
Navy Seal
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Got it, "zionist."
nudge, nudge, wink, wink. They are striped, and have horns, right? |
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#35 |
Stowaway
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tater,
1) give proof that supports that number of individuals waterboarded 2) proof that only waterboarding has been used Hell, while you're at it, give us the insights into the US's torture 'regimen', I'm sure a lot of people would be interested. No. They believe, among other things, that a mystical being gave them the divine right to steal a land that according to them belongs to them and only them. I guess you're ok with that while at the same time condemning other religions. |
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#36 |
Subsim Aviator
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I have stayed out of this one fir as long as I could. But here is my take on the subject of torture.
If in uncivilized enemy, unbound by the Geneva convention captured one of our boys over there... There ain't any lawyers, there are no rights, there are no bleeding hearts liberals, no ACLU... our trooper is going to experience the unimaginable at the hands od sadistic men who wouldn't think twice about taking a hammer to your bound testicles. So I don't want to hear a damned thing about what "is or isn't" torture. Waterboard them until they die of cardiac arrest for all I care. Line them up abrest. Ask them a question. You get no answer you slaughter a live pig, splash them with it's blood and blow their brains out and move to the next guy. By guy #3... you have your information they don't place any value on your lives... Why place value on theirs?
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#37 | |
Navy Seal
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#38 |
Subsim Aviator
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Let it backfire.
It's how I feel, and in my opinion should be our official position. To hell with them all.
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#39 | |
Navy Seal
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The executions after The Battle of Kings Mountain are one example. it could be said those men were killed for an act of treason which was that they were not committing treason. |
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#40 | |
Silent Hunter
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Look, I an think of several situations where I would resort to methods which can be described as torture, and rightly so as they are just that, if that meant to save the lives of my men or civilians. BUT at the very same time I would expect to be tried and convicted for my crimes by the very same society that I have sworn an oath to protect and whose laws I follow, since doing so would put me at odds with them. I can not condone torture as a practice by any government entity because that goes against the very foundation of the society I am to protect. I fully realize this position may seem strange to a lot of you, but that is my take on the mater, when ever I break any law, I already have accepted the potential punishment. There are times when soldiers do things that are morally questionable or downright wrong, they pay the price to keep this somewhat free society alive. Do not cheapen our sacrifices by condoning disgressions against the very base rights we have fought to keep there. |
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#41 | |
Wayfaring Stranger
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#42 |
Lucky Jack
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I wished I'd see a video of US soldier being waterboarded or beaten. I'd quess that'd change the replies in this thread.
![]() IMHO, westernt world has gone to far to call themselves the good guys anymore. We have sunk to their level. Not good. ![]() |
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#43 | |
Subsim Aviator
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No... we havent sunk to their level... not until we start capturing random citizens and start beheading them for shock value. I have nothing good to say about any of these _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ [I value my membership too much to type it so use your imagination]
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#44 |
Ocean Warrior
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I want to add that there are no methods shown in Finland that would lead to permanent physical harm.
Im sure amost anything is considered torture nowdays by some but i dont think essentially scaring people qualifys. I also remember when we were briefed about Russian methods, used in Chechnya for exsample. Everyone agreed that they would rather finish themselves or ask others to help if wounded. If you see your friends skinned alive you might start talking, better not to put yourself in that position, so no surrender for me. |
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#45 |
Navy Seal
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If you start measuring the methods of your torture by using what terrorists do and don't do as a yardstick, you've lost sight of the basic fact that 1) using terrorists as your moral compass is ridiculous and 2) torture is wrong and we as a country are better than that.
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