Could this be counter productive???

[Oberon]

This thread =



End.

[tater]

The "West" is effectively Christian. You can make make a false argument based on tiny subclasses of "fundamentalist" Christians living in compounds someplace, but in actual practice, the West that we know is Christian taken as a whole. Women are free, and equal.

Islam, on the other hand, is absolutely, without question misogynistic, and backwards. Women are not full people. Look at the way they treat homosexuals as well. Islamic society has nothing to recommend it.

Regarding war and subjugation to get the West where it is now, who cares? They are welcome to try, IMHO, and we should fight them the way we fight for real. Again, think WW2. They can attack, that's their prerogative, we should fight back in the style of Curtis LeMay.

I hold them to no special standard.

Keeping them illiterate? I said only that in terms of keeping Muslims less radical, illiteracy is desirable. That is because Islam itself is dangerous. As Christopher Hitchens pointed out in a debate I saw, as long as the Koran exists, anyone who can read it can resurrect "islamism" by doing no more than reading the qur'an and haddith. It's all there in black and white. Since this will not in fact happen, we can expect a larger and larger % of Muslims to hold what we would call "fundamentalist" beliefs. Note that Judaism and Christianity have large numbers of non-fundamentalist adherents. ALL sects of Islam are fundamentalist by the same standards (literalism).

Christians have certainly been violent, but unlike Islam, violence is actually a perversion of their faith (I'm an atheist, remember, don't think I have a dog in this fight). If Christians acted like their savior, they'd be pacifists. Is Muslims act like their prophet, they are violent, generals, spreading their faith at sword point.

Al Qaida is NOT a perversion of Islam, it is simply Islam.

Islam needs a reformation of some sort, but again, it will only be distanced from its inherit violence and misogyny by choosing not to read it.

You always find that there are no shortages of people willing to attack Christianity, yet defend Islam. Attacking BOTH is just fine, but I always see people giving Islam a pass. Christianity is better than Islam---I say this as an atheist---because in spite of Christianity, Christendom created secular, pluralistic, liberal societies. This is a fact---we are communicating as a direct result of this fact. Islam is regressive.

Skybird makes an excellent post, BTW.

IMHO, the "solution" to Islam is only to debauch them with our culture, and NEVER let them win the fight of "multiculturalism" or political correctness. When they come to the West, they need to assimilate, period. That means that they wear bathing suits to the beach or pool---men and women together--and they get no special mediation of marriages, etc (no sharia, thank you). We cannot stop them being backwards scumbags at home, but we can respond not with proportionate, but disproportionate force to attacks.

Ok let's get rid of multiculturalism. Let's start with razing the US to the ground.

[tater]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Ok let's get rid of multiculturalism. Let's start with razing the US to the ground.

Ah, intelligent commentary.

Multiculturalism is the celebration and enablement of "differences" between peoples. The true, American version---which is sadly in decline in favor of European "multiculturalism"---has traditionally been called "the melting pot."

In that system, new peoples come to the US, and the US absorbs some of what they have to offer and in return they integrate and become less liketheir starting culture, and more like the melted "mess" of the rest of us. Their children are "American" and not some XXXXX-american label.

My grandmother was born in Sweden, for example, my father and uncles are "American" and not "Swedish-American."

Oh yea that's a lie too.

No, it's simple fact. Islam is a problem regardless of the presence of the US or not. Islam attacks the kafir where they find them. The problem is not the US, it's not colonialism, it's Islam. Does that mean there has never been part of the problem related to colonialism (almost entirely non-American, BTW)? No, without Islam we'd also have seen some turmoil regarding the end of the colonial period as we've seen in sub-saharan Africa, and Asia. None the less, the specific flavor of the problem would be entirely different. Again, look to non-muslim Africa and Asia for what to expect.

The US has had troubles since the Washington Administration. We did nothing to them AT ALL, but they felt it was their right under the Qur'an to attack and take us as slaves since we were in the dar al harb (house of war). The US response vs the Barbary "pirates" (really jihadists sanctioned by the Ottoman Empire) was just that, a response to attacks on peaceful merchant shipping in the med.

[Skybird]

Islam claims supreme reign and knows no multiculturalism, only monoculturalism.

Terms like peace, tolerance, coexistence, equality, freedom, multiculturalism all must accept castration by Islam supremacism. It defines the meaning and the limits of these terms, and ensures dominant ruling by Sharia and Quran. Western understanding of these terms has nothing to do with it.

Islamophile useful idiots strongly refuse to recognise that, for it would render their hopes meaningless and ultimately end their quarrel with resistance to Islam (at least as long as they do not have a crush for totalitarianism itself).

Muslim birth rates are such that Muslim social low classe shift the social and demographic balances of the infested nations towards growing influence on education, politics, legislation and law enforcement.

Another demonstration that skybirds hatred really is akin to that from 1930s germany.
Replace the word Muslim with Jew and you have a nice film by Eberhard Taubert.

In this context I remind of that the western world learned a lot about slave holding - from islamo-arabic slave traders who already were there with their businss long before the first black slaves where shipped to Europe and later Northern America.

I could have sworn the first big shipments of black slaves to Europe would have been many many centuries before there was such a thing as Islam.
Come to think of it the two cultures that are described as the cradle of western civilisation shipped slaves from all over the place.
Maybe it was time travelling muslims that taught them, you know how sneaky those infectious parasites are, the Eternal Muslim swarming like rats through time and space breeding good germans out of existance and getting their evil claws into education politics legislation and law enforcement as part of their global conspiracy....hey skybird missed out the media...the global media is run by the muslim horde.

My grandmother was born in Sweden, for example, my father and uncles are "American" and not "Swedish-American."

Really?
Yet in Boston on paddys day how many narrowbacks could you find claiming to be Irish-American because of some great great great grandmother they think came from County Dingle.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Really?
Yet in Boston on paddys day how many narrowbacks could you find claiming to be Irish-American because of some great great great grandmother they think came from County Dingle.

This very post proves it true. Some people who have zero cultural affinity with Irish culture (ie: actual culture practiced in Ireland) claim to be more closely related because of some nonsensical drop of blood someplace. My grandmother had a very irish maiden name, and her mother was in fact born there. That said, I'd never suggest that I'd have more in common with someone because of a surname someplace in the family history, that's absurd.

I have more in common culturally with virtually any 3d generation+ american selected at random than I do with someone picked at random from a country represented by some surname in my family heritage. Obviously if you are naturalized, or your parents were, you might have more customs still from wherever "the old country" might have been.

It's funny that sometimes nationality gets taken as "race." Even more silly when one considers that "race" is pretty much meaningless anyway.

[Skybird]

Some nice summary being done here:

http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch9.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Women/index.html

Yeah yeah, I know it is a Christian website posting these texts. But what I have read over there about Islam, matches what I know about it, so i would be stupid to skip it just becasue I do not like the messenger eventually (I haven't checked the latter - callme a pragmatic atheist then )

The book "Allahs Schleier" that I linked above probably is the best on the role of women and their meanign for the culture clash that I have ever read about women&Islam.

In the end, it all comes down to Muhammad's assessment of women:

"The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that for a man?' The women said, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind.' "