Massive Price Drop!

[Nordmann]

Originally Posted by Coldcall

Ubisoft would not continue making the games if there was no money in them. SH5 even with poor sales will probbaly make a reasonable profit. Do remember that dev costs in Romania are very cheap compared to the same costs in Western Europe or US/Canada.

A 1 or 2 million dollar budget in Romania will buy you alot of devs and artists.

So the idea that Ubi are doing us all some favour by producing a loss making game is typical corporate pr bunk.

Yes exactly, that's my point. If there was no money in this genre, then they would have stopped with SH3. Clearly that is not the case, so why should SH5, despite it's current problems, be any different is that respect?

[Coldcall]

Originally Posted by Nordmann

Yes exactly, that's my point. If there was no money in this genre, then they would have stopped with SH3. Clearly that is not the case, so why should SH5, despite it's current problems, be any different is that respect?

Ya good point They;ve released 3 sub sims since 2005. Hardly signs of a dead market :-)

The only reason they might drop the franchise is if they werent satisfied with the profit margin , based on what they were spending on dev and marketing. So whereas Ubi might think a 20% margin on a spend of $3million ($600,000) is pittance compared to what some games return, to a smaller dev house that would be a decent outcome. All devs and artists well paid and profit to boot.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by TDK1044

I'm so over this 'be nice to Ubisoft because they are the only Publisher producing subsims' argument. It looks to me like SH5 is very modable...we just need to be able to play it offline in order to really enjoy it.

I automatically assume this is directed to me (and that's fine), but I do want to point out that I have always maintained that we should be nice to any publisher that makes a decent submarine game, not only Ubisoft. And by "be nice", of course no one means "unconditional love". But we should try not to adopt a hostile, unreasonable attitude. We should separate ourselves as subsim enthusiasts from the militant consumers that judge everything purely on the weight of their hard earned money© It is possible to be critical AND nice....

I like to "be nice" to everyone!

(When possible).

Originally Posted by Coldcall

Ya good point They;ve released 3 sub sims since 2005. Hardly signs of a dead market :-)

The only reason they might drop the franchise is if they werent satisfied with the profit margin , based on what they were spending on dev and marketing. So whereas Ubi might think a 20% margin on a spend of $3million ($600,000) is pittance compared to what some games return, to a smaller dev house that would be a decent outcome. All devs and artists well paid and profit to boot.

I wonder how much impact there is on the aspect that there are some really fanatical history buffs and submarine-loving devs in Bucharest.... You know what I mean? If the guys in Ubi Romania that are passionate about submarine warfare were not around, would Ubi have made SH3, 4, 5 ? Or, did those games, especially SH4 and 5, see the light of day mainly because Ubisoft knows they have a valuable resource and decided to utilize it? I imagine there is a big fixed cost in getting educated about the millions of historical details a sub simulation like SH3-5, and now that the FC has been invested, Ubi thinks they should keep it invested....

Just a thought.....

[Coldcall]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I wonder how much impact there is on the aspect that there are some really fanatical history buffs and submarine-loving devs in Bucharest.... You know what I mean? If the guys in Ubi Romania that are passionate about submarine warfare were not around, would Ubi have made SH3, 4, 5 ? Or, did those games, especially SH4 and 5, see the light of day mainly because Ubisoft knows they have a valuable resource and decided to utilize it? I imagine there is a big fixed cost in getting educated about the millions of historical details a sub simulation like SH3-5, and now that the FC has been invested, Ubi thinks they should keep it invested....

Just a thought.....

I think that is very likely the truth of the matter. Someone in Romania clearly loves making subsims (and is bloody good at it) and i think their talent is being wasted working for Ubi.

I feel sorry for that dev team because if they are emotionally attached to the subsim genre then they must be at wits end with how the release and post-rlease has been handled.

You know this so reminds me of how music publishers treat their artists and why companies like EMI are today on their last legs.

Time for devs to start removing the chains that bind them.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Coldcall

Time for devs to start removing the chains that bind them.

For that to happen, they would have to go independent. And where would the money comes from? (not being sarcastic, just wondering).

[Nordmann]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

For that to happen, they would have to go independent. And where would the money comes from? (not being sarcastic, just wondering).

Yes, exactly. Even indie companies tend to go with a publisher if they want their game to reach a wider audience. It's a necessary evil.

[609_Avatar]

Originally Posted by Nordmann

Yes, exactly. Even indie companies tend to go with a publisher if they want their game to reach a wider audience. It's a necessary evil.

The ignorant side of me in terms of how these things actually work would like to think in this day and age with the internet being as prevalent as it is that they could do a decent job of marketing the game themselves and sell directly to people over the net. Kind of like how some up and coming musicians are trying to do now a days.

[Coldcall]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

For that to happen, they would have to go independent. And where would the money comes from? (not being sarcastic, just wondering).

There is plenty of funding out there for a well put together pitch, led by a dev team that has a track record. Thats the key. I on my own could not go to a VC and say i have a great idea etc....However with a project lead from SH5 it would be a total walk in the park, the figures would just need to be right. If as one poster said Ubi merely put a few hundred thousand euros into development then that is small change to an investor.

Not being funny but i could probably scrape that together on my own :-)

I was thinking you need atleast a million quid or so, but apprently that doesnt seem to be the case.

Of course marketing and promotions costs money too, but with communties like subsim, simhq. combatsim, and maybe some good reviews (that would be a first :-) one can be creative these days and not spend the sort of money EA and Ubi do on marketing. Actually from what Ive heard Ubi totally negelected US marketing for SH5 simply so im not sure they are spending that much on marketing SH5 anyway.

Im not saying one can wave a wand and all this is easy, but dedicated folks, who have the experience could do this if they were determined. Gaming is a growing industry and alot of VC houses who use to lend money for financial type investments are now looking at other avenues of investment.

[Bilge_Rat]

Another option would be to get in bed with the devil and make a deal with Ubisoft. SH5 has everything we need to create a ultra-realistic subsim and it is always easier to build on existing code than start from scratch.

Say a new company employing talented modders enters into a joint venture with Ubi to turn SH5 into a more hardcore sim and sell it as a new product, with profits to be split.

That approach has been successful in the past with, for example, "Falcon 4: Allied Force" and "War in the Pacific: Admiral's edition". In both cases, modders who had been working on the games for free approached the software owner and worked out a deal.

I would have no problem forking over another $50 for SH5:Hardcore edition.

[Coldcall]

so why's everyone scared of going independent? I did so years ago, walked out of my job and started my own business. I had to overcome an inherent fear of failure to do it, but once i did it there was no turning back. Yes, as he says in Dune, "fear is the killer". Fear will stop you doing many things in life you will one day regret not having tried

Im not trying to make this some sort of lifechanging speech but for gawds sakes, humanity is built upon the actions of small groups and indiviauls, not large statist or corproate entities. Microsoft, Google all started a small independents. Look at them today.

Anways i dont understand why anyone chooses to work for someone else as in being employed by them, if they have the skills that are valuable then they can go and do it on their own, by their own set of principles.

In the case of SH5. If thats the same group of devs doing the Sh titles then im really surpsied they havent flown the coop. Its not them who need Ubi, its Ubi who needs them.

What they cant develop the game but in a certified Ubisoft office? They are satisified that Ubi will take the majority of profit, skim it off the top and pay the dev team like if they were plumbers? My view is that the art and work that has gone into SH series is by rights of natural justice the property of the devs and artists.

The music industry for many years treated music artists with the same sort of, we own all the rights crap, and if you look at EA and Ubi today they have done the same thing. Publishers owning all rights including release decisions about the work created by others.

And yes im a capitalist :-)

[TDK1044]

[QUOTE=Neal Stevens;1334968]I automatically assume this is directed to me (and that's fine), but I do want to point out that I have always maintained that we should be nice to any publisher that makes a decent submarine game, not only Ubisoft. And by "be nice", of course no one means "unconditional love". But we should try not to adopt a hostile, unreasonable attitude. We should separate ourselves as subsim enthusiasts from the militant consumers that judge everything purely on the weight of their hard earned money© It is possible to be critical AND nice....

I like to "be nice" to everyone!

(When possible). [QUOTE]

No, not at all, Neal. You have a unique position in your relationship with Ubisoft and I hold you in the highest regard. I was referring to members here who are so desparate to have any kind of sub sim, that they will turn a blind eye to just about everything in order to get the new game in any condition Ubisoft releases it in.

If the modders here and elsewhere refused to touch SH5 at all, what kind of game would we have? Another buggy mess that's barely playable and not even accessible a lot of the time.

I think that anyone who, knowing Ubisoft's history, and knowing that this was a DRM game targeted at the casual gamer, who still paid $49 or more for it, belongs in a padded cell!

[Nordmann]

Originally Posted by TDK1044

If the modders here and elsewhere refused to touch SH5 at all, what kind of game would we have? Another buggy mess that's barely playable and not even accessible a lot of the time.

Yes, rather like SH3 and 4 on release, and people still play those games.

Originally Posted by TDK1044

I think that anyone who, knowing Ubisoft's history, and knowing that this was a DRM game targeted at the casual gamer, who still paid $49 or more for it, belongs in a padded cell!

Well, I wouldn't pay full price for it, and I haven't. I tend to avoid anything above £20, unless it's really worth the price tag, which most are not. Still, it seems that the national mental health facilities are going to be very busy this month!

[609_Avatar]

Originally Posted by TDK1044

If the modders here and elsewhere refused to touch SH5 at all, what kind of game would we have? Another buggy mess that's barely playable and not even accessible a lot of the time.

Just to be fair here, and I don't even own the game (my brother-in-law does and has played the past few days though and I've read tons of stuff here), but describing it as a "buggy mess that's barely playable" is going a bit too far. Yes, there are plenty of bugs, some won't even be noticed by newbies (my brother-in-law said it was really cool when he was leaving port and saw a few damaged ships in harbor trying to maneuver which he attributed to an allied air attack, until I told him it was bad AI that caused them to crash into the docks...) but it is hardly "barely playable" as many people are playing it daily for hours without crashes, etc. You might be more "demanding" than others it terms of what you call acceptable, and I'm probably close to that in some regards, but it's playable, maybe just not enjoyable because of spotting bugs, like the ships crashing in port for example. Without modding it is a lot worse, like you state, but is still playable, just frustrating for many. I know, semantics and all, but people will take you at your word and that's just not literally true what you stated from all that I've heard. I do whole heartedly agree that without modders this series would probably already be dead with SHIV.

[The General]

Originally Posted by 609_Avatar

my brother-in-law said it was really cool when he was leaving port and saw a few damaged ships in harbor trying to maneuver which he attributed to an allied air attack, until I told him it was bad AI that caused them to crash into the docks...)

Aww, your Brother-in-law was quite happy, blissfully unaware.

I enjoyed reading your post. The sad truth is that some people on this site get more enjoyment from criticizing a game they haven't even played, or the people that do play the game, than contributing constructively to this website or to the FUTURE of the series (Mentioning no names: ). Put me im the Brig if you want! All I'm doing is defending SH5 from those who haven't played it and don't know what they're talking about anyway!

[thyro]

Originally Posted by The General

All I'm doing is defending SH5 from those who haven't played it and don't know what they're talking about anyway!

I'll submit your name to Pope to make a saint of you. The crusades are no more but you never know if it won't start tomorrow. Beside is good to have defenders whatever are the causes