Ubisoft Masterserver down? (merged)

[Mos]

Originally Posted by jwilliams

Let me hightlight it for you :-
The distribution and use of cracked copies is illegal in almost every developed country

The use of pirated copies of software is illegal. The possession of software to break digital rights management software is not.

[jwilliams]

Originally Posted by Reece

I think UBI should do the right thing now and issue a patch to remove OSP, problem solved!

What and admit defeat ???


LOL not gonna happen anytime soon

[razark]

Originally Posted by jwilliams

Let me hightlight it for you :-
The distribution and use of cracked copies is illegal in almost every developed country

Use. If you possess it, but do not use it or distribute it, then it's legal?

However, it depends on the laws of the country you are actually in. Some countries are more restrictive.

Originally Posted by Mos

The use of pirated copies of software is illegal. The possession of software to break digital rights management software is not.

Depends. If you interpret DMCA a certain way, tools that can be used for cracking can be illegal.

In the United States, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) made software cracking, as well as the distribution of information that facilitates software cracking, illegal.

Just for fun, guess what country Subsim is in.

[jwilliams]

Originally Posted by Mos

The use of pirated copies of software is illegal. The possession of software to break digital rights management software is not.

I put a link after my quote.. read it... You might be surprised.

But no one has ever been sued over it.... But it's still illegal in most counties (Not all).

So like I said, Its at best a grey area. Best to steer clear.

[The Enigma]

Originally Posted by blackdog_kt

.......

Interesting point of view.
However, something tells me that if you would send such email to UBI,
they are gonna disable your account and prevent you from loggin in to their servers, since you have violated their EULA.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Arclight

There's no such thing as 100% reliable. I don't see how people, especially knowing about OSP, could expect such a thing.

Agree!
I read a lot of posts here with gamers indicating how they are shocked, dismayed, flabergasted, curious, angry, unrealistically unreasonable in relation to the notion that a internet connection is continuous, or uninterrupted...
and when the internet goes down, or servers go down then that is totally unforeseeable! (By some people, as if indicating that internet, servers, technology, machinery, or anything else that "runs" never breaks down).
Now before you jump down my throat, yes, i totally agree that Ubisoft should have taken measures to avoid overcooking of servers, and yes, i agree they should not have proceeded with DRM, and yes, you bought a product and yes you are entititled to be able to obtain "proper" use out of that product, and finally, yes, Ubisoft is to blame...
However, to allude or to suggest that it is a mystery and/or a complete enigma and that a connection to Ubisoft's servers will be continuous well, that's a little optimistic.
Ubisoft may have bitten off more than it can chew, ie. Online verification, ie. constant internet connection required, which i'm surprised about because surely they must also realise that nothing is continuous....

Heck, even ISP's are (technically) misinforming people with the advertisements of "unlimited downloads" with a plan......(not sure anywhere else in the world)
but here in Australia most ISP's indicate this, which of course is bollocks, because you are either going to be charged for excess d/loads, or your plan will be shaped....

[Mos]

Originally Posted by jwilliams

I put a link after my quote.. read it... You might be surprised.

But no one has ever been sued over it.... But it's still illegal in most counties (Not all).

You're misreading the article. Section 1201 of the DMCA clearly states that it is illegal to circumvent copy protection or distribute software. It DOES allow you to circumvent copy protection on software that you legally own if the copy protection prevents you from using the software in a non-infringing manner.

(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this chapter.

(B) The prohibition contained in subparagraph (A) shall not apply to persons who are users of a copyrighted work which is in a particular class of works, if such persons are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by virtue of such prohibition in their ability to make noninfringing uses of that particular class of works under this title, as determined under subparagraph (C).

The law then specifically prohibits distribution of the software.

(2) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that—
(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or
(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person’s knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

It says nothing about the use of software that circumvents DRM, only the distribution of it or the use of software that has been circumvented.

Subsim is also protected so long as instructions on cracking the DRM are not distributed. This is by the First Amendment, but also by specific statuatory language. The instructions on cracking the DRM are probably illegal, too.

(4) Nothing in this section shall enlarge or diminish any rights of free speech or the press for activities using consumer electronics, telecommunications, or computing products.

That being said, it is completely understandable that Neal does not wish the forum to be a haven for piracy and such. It's a subsim forum, it's about playing the game. So I don't really want to continue this but I can't help but get drawn into a good ol fashioned legal argument.

[blackdog_kt]

Well, i'm sorry if i got you guys all going in legal circles. As you can see, i mentioned a couple of dozen times the words "legally bought copy" whenever i referred to making alterations and of course i didn't point anyone to sources for illegal files. Again, i didn't advocate piracy, i advocated our collective right to do as we wish with our personal installation of a legally bought and owned copy. It's a fundamental right, similar to remapping the keyboard controls or changing resolutions.

I just wanted to steer the discussion a bit to ways that legitimate owners could exert some pressure on Ubi. Code alterations are just that, but they are treated according to wether they have the potential to make money or lose money for the publishing company. I don't see anyone in an official position fretting over mods for example, as they greatly enhance their game and make it more attractive.

That's natural in a sense and it doesn't mean we should all go on a warped crusade to have everything for free either.

What's needed is some balance here, between what's good for the publishers (so that they can continue making the games we like) and us (so that we don't get frustrated and quit playing them) because there is some co-dependency involved.

I agree that if i sent an e-mail like that to UBI they would probably block my account. If a few thousand people did the same the might still block their accounts, but this DRM platform spreads outside our little niche gaming genre with the potential to turn into an avalanche. Imagine a couple of million users from different gaming genres (as Uplay will be used on everything) with blocked accounts, simply because they essentially told UBI that their version of the game needs improving.

If inability to provide service can be masked behind DDOS attacks (real or imaginary, i don't know and don't care really), it's a whole different story to try and hide that a few million of your customers have been denied service and access to a bought product for simply speaking their mind about it. Taking Ubi to court over server downtime might not be easy, but taking them to court over mass bans that result in the customer effectively getting ripped off is much easier.

As in most things in life, this is a matter of critical mass. Nag them to death with a sufficiently large number of people on your side and they will cave in.

[jwilliams]

We have been nag'n Ubi about their OSP. But their reply was " we are commited to this" So we nagged even more and their reply was " we know you are pissed at this, But we are commited to this".

So they are commited to it... they wont back down. So the only course of action is to not buy their games. then maybe they'll listen.... but most prob, they will abandon the PC and consentrate on consoles.

If the DDoS attack continues and they are unable to stop it. Then they will have to release a patch that enable us to play offline. But how long we will have to put up with not being able to connect is anyones guess.

[razark]

Originally Posted by blackdog_kt

Well, i'm sorry if i got you guys all going in legal circles. As you can see, i mentioned a couple of dozen times the words "legally bought copy" whenever i referred to making alterations and of course i didn't point anyone to sources for illegal files.

See here:

What is Subsim.com's stance in relation to warez and piracy? SUBSIM Review has a longstanding policy against software piracy. We do NOT allow discussion or even mention of warez, abandonware, peer-to-peer game swapping, illegal download sites, or rip-off websites. Nothing will get you banned faster than pointing people to illegal software distribution sites. Don't ask for serial numbers, manuals, or cracks. Any admission that you have in your possession illegal software can and usually will result in revocation of your Radio Room forum account. Support computer game programmers buy legally purchasing their work. They have to eat too, you know.

Again:

Any admission that you have in your possession illegal software can and usually will result in revocation of your Radio Room forum account.

Look, Neal and the moderators don't care what you do in the privacy of your own home, but don't discuss it here.

Originally Posted by blackdog_kt

...in most countries (especially in the EU) local law supersedes any EULA...

Subsim is in the United States. The server is here in Houston, Texas. The laws of the United States apply to said server. If server has illegal content, administrator of server is legally responsible for it.

Circumvention of DRM, as well as information and tools for such, are illegal under the DMCA in the US. If someone from Ubisoft were to complain to Neal's server hosting company, the server would be unplugged, and Subsim would be gone. I know, I used to work for the company.

Granted, this is a worst case scenario, but just go along with Neal's wishes, and don't talk about it here.

<back to my gin and tonic now>

[THE_MASK]

Kid tries to play Silent Hunter 5

[DiverDan]

Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st

I'm really curious, but I never tried: How would that work on Amazon, for example? They do have a flat out "no software returns" policy.

Amazon has refunded me in the past for both a game and a music CD. But, I imagine they watch someone as to how many times they do this.

[DiverDan]

Originally Posted by JackAubrey

To be honest, I am not happy. I still think that this specific DRM is a shame and a slap into the face of the honest customer. But I cannot say that I am happy about the fact that others can't play their legally bought game.

We all knew from the start that those without a reliable, always-on connection would be left out. Who could know that Ubisoft would not be able to provide constant service?
Ok, some of us naysayers painted pictures like that but, to be honest again, I wouldn't have thought that the DRM-Service would go down for hours on end.
I thought that you would get an occasional Server Maintenance here and there, but not complete outages for hours.

Of course it's the Hackers fault who attack the Ubi-Servers. Well, what else should Ubi say?
"Sorry guys, we miscalculated the server load" or "Sorry, that DRM was a bad screwup" would certainly be nothing that Ubi would ever say.

I don't know if it's the Hackers or Ubis fault. I just know that honest people paid money for a game they cannot play when they want.

They blame hackers for having to impose DRM, then they blame hackers for servers being down. Man, these hackers dudes must be supermen.

Oh, and naturally, they'll blame hackers for their dismal sales figures.

[RSColonel_131st]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it, but I don't share it. We both know that it is very likely that Ubisoft will drop the OSP after a period of time, just like they did for SH3 (SF) and SH4 (Secureom).

UBI Spokespersons in an interview answered that question in the negative, as in: OSP will remain in the games forever.

They will not drop OSP, like they did with the Security for the previous two. That's what they said.

And if it has already been cracked (which I tend to believe more than people who claim 95% of users are able to play) what good does it do, except be a marketing asset and prevent resale?

[DiverDan]

Originally Posted by Arclight

Reliability issues come in all shapes and sizes; 360s breaking down, PS3 suffering from a calendar bug, PCs getting a virus, etc.

There's no such thing as 100% reliable. I don't see how people, especially knowing about OSP, could expect such a thing.

That makes no sense. If UBI put a disclaimer on the box saying something like; "Persistence internet connection required to play - Warning! UBI does not guarantee 24 hour access to its servers, game play available only during server uptime." Do you think anyone would purchase it?!

Sure, any reasonable person knows nothing is 100% reliable, but UBI is selling a product that requires just that.