What's the Fascination with U-boats?

[JScones]

I come from a very military family. At least one member in every generation dating back to at least the 1700s has served in a Commonwealth (British or Australian) Defence Force (including me) and fought in a major conflict.

So you'd think that I'd be interested in British military history...but I'm not. For some reason I have always found German WWII fascinating. Nothing political, mind you, moreso the equipment, tactics and discipline. And of course, the uniforms and rousing marches. Can't forget those.

My main fascination is actually with the Panzer Corps. The Ubootwaffe comes second. I'm more active with U-boats simply because SH3 is so replayable. Panzer Elite was the bees knees for me before then, but it's too old now, and the latest generation of Tanksims just don't hold the appeal (I thought Steel Fury was going to be a winner, but it seems to have died...unless I'm mistaken).

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Harry708

I am sure some will take this the wrong way but I have a question, what’s the fascination with U-boats anyway. SH 2, SH 3 and SH 4 the U-boat add-on and now SH 5 all with U-boats. I know the U-boat was considered the best boat at the time by some, but really why does everyone like playing on the ‘Loosing Side’. By the end of 1943 the U-boats were nothing but an Iron Coffin with maybe a 20% chance of getting home again.

IMHO of course.

Well, some people KNEW this topic would eventually draw a response from me.

In my own words from a post a couple months ago:
For whatever reason, Uboats are probably one of the most, if not the most romanticized elements of WW2. The uboat story has been told and retold to such a degree, they've been stripped of most historical context, become completely neutral and sterile, laminated with western ideals and ideology, thought of morally as the shining knights of the sea, placed upon a pedestal and worshiped as Hero's, and lamented as the unfortunate martyrs in the tragedy that is war.

The movie Das Boot, and the Novel Iron Coffins, has a HUGE role in that here. Both book and movie are often taken at face value as the gospel truth by many here. Which leads me to another point. Something that's bound to cause a stir, It's something that was posted in private because the author was worried about a backlash. So I will not say who the author of this post is, and i know reposting it is not going to make me any friends (as if i've ever worried about that ), but it's such an awesome post on the subject, i can't resist:

As I have written before , I enjoy studying both theaters of the submarine wars. I have mutual respect for the both sides though I do acknowledge, unlike the fanboys, that there were dedicated Nazis within the u-boat arm. And that fact starts at the top, with Herr Dönitz...he did become the second Führer after all.

I have had the honor of corresponding with and talking with many u-boat veterans...some that are famous and others that are not. I was driven to at first to gain autographs from these men from history. I wanted to be able to ask hard questions and get a deeper understanding of the war from their point of view and to connect with those that I had only read about. To get a human side of a big part of the war. I am very grateful for their friendship and assistance. They opened my eyes to things I would never have understood otherwise.

To a man, they are all very glad that their Fatherland, Germany, lost the war. They speak fondly of their days in the service as most veterans do. The less famous u-boat veterans also feel honored to be remembered by someone such as myself who took the time and effort to locate their address and drop them a letter inquiring about their experiences. Those that are famous received literally hundreds of letters a weeks from folks.

I must say that these veterans don't think highly of Herbert Werner or Lothar-Günther Buchheim. Werner wrote his book in the late 1960s and was received with critical success. It became a bestseller world-wide for the frankness and anti-Nazi sentiments. Btw, the 1960s were the beginnings of apologist histories regarding the Nazi state. It is a fascinating memoir to read...and I use the word "memoir" loosely. The esteemed naval historian Dr. Jürgen Rohwer studied the memoir and compared its claims to facts. Many of the instances Werner claims were personal experiences were actually borrowed from other people. Rohwer stated that if the factual errors were highlighted in red the book would "read as a bloodbath."

The success of Werner's Iron Coffins was not lost on Buchheim. Buchheim realized that the world might be ready for a novel of his 'experiences' on a u-boat...provided he add in the required anti-Nazi spin. It is a fine book and I have read it many times, but I am aware of the time and reason for its creation. Money. Nothing more...nothing less. Reinhard Hardegen has spoken bluntly about his dislike of Buchheim. In a nutshell, he states that Buchheim 'has only one god and it is money.' Hardegen also took strong objections to the wild party at the brothel before a patrol, the crew pissing on their captain, and the gun-incident where the captain has to keep his chief maschinist in check. None of these ever happened. Hardegen states that if a captain had to produce a pistol, then the situation was far beyond getting control. The respect towards Der Alte was too great for these things to happen.

Erich Topp said that I should look at Das Boot as factual with the boredom depicted...and then the excitement of action. But forget the rest. Karl-Friedrich Merten had a long standing feud with Buchheim towards his defining opus. The u-bootfarhrer organizations disowned both Werner and Buchheim. (Trust me, Werner is a cocky s.o.b. considering he didn't do anything as a skipper except survive.)

For more detailed study of the German u-boat in popular culture, read Michael Hadley's Count Not the Dead.

And for the claim of the u-boat arm being Nazi-free, that is something that can never be proven. Timothy Mulligan did a fine study on u-boat men in Neither Sharks nor Wolves. He dedicated a chapter 'proving' that the u-boat men weren't Nazis. Never mind the fact that once Dönitz succeeded Raeder as CinC of the Kriegsmarine the Nazi salute soon became the official salute. Yeah, I know some would say big whoopdee-doo.

Here's the fact that Mulligan nor anyone else has been able to explain away. Millions joined the Nazi party in the 1930s (mandated by law or whatever). Out of those, a vast major believed in the basic tenets of National Socialism. Most of the party members were those skilled laborers that eventually became the backbone of the u-boat arm....machinists, mechanics, etc.

Those that enlisted were required (by Admiral Raeder) to resign their membership in the National Socialist party thereby creating a "Nazi-free" Kriegsmarine. But here's the problem...they may have resigned their membership, but did they truly resign their belief in the ideology of the Nazi party? I say no. There are ample cases of those with definite Nazi leanings within the u-boat service (Wolfgang Lüth, Joachim Schepke, Ulrich Abel and his vilification of Oskar Kusch who was eventually executed for statements against the party, Günther Prien, etc.)

For years, u-boat enthusiasts have paid no attention to "the men behind the curtain" but once you strip away the romantiscm, you are left staring at a grim reality...a reality that isn't as nice to cuddle up with.

I'll conclude this long-winded post with an anecdote told to me by Erich Topp on a phone call I had with him in 2000. Herrn Topp told me about a train ride he had with publisher Ted Savas. He told me that the train was moving along through night and it was quiet. Mr. Savas noticed that Topp seemed rather pensive and asked if he could know what he was thinking. Topp leaned forward and said that he was thinking that after Topp was dead, he would only be remembered for one thing. And it bothered him deeply that none of his post-war accomplishments would be remembered. Only the ugly parts.

And it turns out, at least at SubSsim, he was right.

I search for truth...not things that prop up what I believe/want to be true. I have to admit that it was difficult to let the myths go, but I have a better understanding of the u-boat war now than I did then.

I probably just set myself up for crucifiiction, but.. meh, won't be the first time.

[urfisch]

personally, i came across uboats due to the film "das boot", as i watched the tv mini series in 1985. after that i read the book "iron coffins" and got addicted to this topic.

cant say, what it really is about the boats. but its a very special weapon and there are very special crews in it. you are all alone with 50 men in this steel cigar. far away from home, beneath your boat, just hundrets or thousands meters of water. and above also just water. its different to normal ships on surface. the small room you have, no personal area for yourself, no daylight for most of the crew...and for all of these reasons, a great and uncomparable comradeship.

its simply fascinating...

[IanC]

Some of those veterans probably put down those two books because they showed their vulnerable side? Like fear during depth charge attacks, some incompetent decisions etc... Also I always considered those two books more anti-war, rather than anti-nazi.
This may sound a little simplified, but I think those two books are still the best out there (or among the best out there).

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Apart from the fact that the German subs were the most famous ones, the German Atlantic campaign gives me the most variation and challenge.

/personal opinion

Yes but when you start having 3 episodes revolving around the same theater it becomes stale very quickly. SH 2, 3 and 5. Some new blood is needed, and put WWII behind. Explore WW I, the cold war, anything except WW II.
History didn't start and end there, its beyond stupid to have games or simulations that are stuck in that time period.
During the late ninties software houses were exploring the whole 20th century, not only in sub sims, naval sims, flight sims. Then everything started to fossilize on WWII. FPS and simulations. Enough is enough. Just how many fricking times can you play an uboat in the middle of the atlantic ?
Ubisoft grow a pair of @@ and leave WWII behind, start exploring the early cold war for instance.

[Highbury]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Yes but when you start having 3 episodes revolving around the same theater it becomes stale very quickly. SH 2, 3 and 5. Some new blood is needed, and put WWII behind. Explore WW I, the cold war, anything except WW II.
History didn't start and end there, its beyond stupid to have games or simulations that are stuck in that time period.

..........

For alot of people, if they can bring something new to the WWII era or make it better each time, then they will never get bored of it. I think if SHV was going to just be just like SHIV in the Atlantic you would see much less enthusiasm for it.

[Mikhayl]

Very interesting stuff Duci, who was that? That's funny for me because I remember, when I was something like 11, went to the shop with my parents who were OK to buy me a new videogame. On the shelf there were Silent Hunter and Aces of the Deep. The pictures on the back of the box of Aces looked better, but I thought "no way I'm playing a German, yuk", so I picked Silent Hunter to play the real heroes

Now I'm still under no illusion at all regarding the proportion of actual nazis in the u-boat arm, anyway nazi or not they picked the wrong side. But I think it's like Jaesen, seriously, you have to admit that German/Nazi gear was overall quite sexy. Guns, planes, u-boats, battleships, fancy uniforms, badass looking tanks etc. That and the "underdog" feeling usually makes a good game experience. That and living in France I'm more familiar with Brest, Lorient etc than with Pearl Harbour and the rest, it's easier to relate to.

Oh yeah and maybe one day we'll have a good SH in WWI

[REIS]

Originally Posted by Harry708

I am sure some will take this the wrong way but I have a question, what’s the fascination with U-boats anyway. SH 2, SH 3 and SH 4 the U-boat add-on and now SH 5 all with U-boats. I know the U-boat was considered the best boat at the time by some, but really why does everyone like playing on the ‘Loosing Side’. By the end of 1943 the U-boats were nothing but an Iron Coffin with maybe a 20% chance of getting home again.

IMHO of course.

because u-boats was the best submarines of that time, because i was very well trained crews, because it was one of the most extremely dangerous missions ever. Noone like to play when they allways win, we like hardcore when it's very, very hard! Because when it's very hard - it's almost heroic. Hen there flying 1000ds of planes searching for ya, when there 1000ds of destroyers seekeng for ya, and you are alone, in the deep cold waters of atlantic, and you have only one chanse to survive, you can do no mistakes at all, only one chanse to shoot, and you go deeper, DEEPER CAPITAN, DEEPER!

[HMS Astute]

It's a myriad of factors really, but the most prominent period of unrestricted submarine warfare historically is naturally going to get a lot of attention from developers and sim fans alike.

I'd love to sea a subsim based on nuclear fast attack subs and boomers with the depth of SH3, but I don't think Ubi would bother.

The casual market they seem to be trying to target tend to be geared towards extremely action orientated game play, not the type of people who would be keen on running launch drills, tracking fleets and evading enemy subs for example.

Unless you venture into the realms of fantasy, you can't really get an action orientated (by action i mean the type of action that appeals to a mass market gamer, ie, blowing stuff up ) subsim based on anything other than WWII or WWI.

Edit: Trust me to miss the point

[McBeck]

Originally Posted by Harry708

You’re right the Gato does look Bigger, Nastier and more Lethal.

The Gato is 95m and the VIIC is 67m

[IanC]

Originally Posted by McBeck

The Gato is 95m and the VIIC is 67m

Size doesn't matter (and no, that's not what my wife said).

[trynnallen]

I am sure some will take this the wrong way but I have a question, what’s the fascination with U-boats anyway. SH 2, SH 3 and SH 4 the U-boat add-on and now SH 5 all with U-boats. I know the U-boat was considered the best boat at the time by some, but really why does everyone like playing on the ‘Loosing Side’. By the end of 1943 the U-boats were nothing but an Iron Coffin with maybe a 20% chance of getting home again.

I got introduced to subs at the tender age of 7 when my family was invited for a tour of a LA class sub that docked at Norfolk. It was neat, but it wasn't any neater than the USS Arkansas (saw her commissioning), or the USS Nimitz. In fact the two surface ships had a lot going for them that the sub didn't. Subs faded from memory until 1982 (we were stationed in Oslo by then). When as a school we ended spending two days in the bomb shelters under the school because the Swedes and the Soviets were playing dodge'm with live ordience down in Stockholm harbor. This was the "Whiskey on the Rocks" incident. Fast forward to 1989 and my Junior year in H.S. my thesis paper for history (Because our history teacher was a mean S*B who believed that the only way to teach history was to use a metiphorical pick axe and jam it into the students brain. You learned, but it wasn't fun or interesting.) was the Pacfic war, I just had to find a topic. On the fifth attempt to get my thesis approved I had stumbled on the Pacific Submarine War. This hooked me. It was something I could bite into more to the point it was something my teacher knew nothing about and while I couldn't baffle him with BS I could out think him. Subs followed me through college and grad school. If I ever needed a handy topic in US history it was there for me. In grad school it was useful as a good means to get into the US Navy Achieves on their closed days.

But all of the subsims except SH2 I just couldn't get into much. Not because they weren't good, they were, but because I couldn't play the Allies. I have really nothing against the U-boat arm, but I can't "suspend my disbelief" to make the sim fun. I have the same problem with TIE fighter, Fighting Steel, and other FPS or sims that I have to play on the "bad" side. I can play the game it just doesn't hold much interest or hold it for long.

That being said, I would love to play the Brits in SH4 or SH5 or even the Italians in the Med. The Med I think is vastly underutilized for siming. Yes it mostly ends by 1943, but even after that it wasn't exactly a safe place to steam.

[fromhell]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Yes but when you start having 3 episodes revolving around the same theater it becomes stale very quickly. SH 2, 3 and 5. Some new blood is needed, and put WWII behind. Explore WW I, the cold war, anything except WW II.
History didn't start and end there, its beyond stupid to have games or simulations that are stuck in that time period.
During the late ninties software houses were exploring the whole 20th century, not only in sub sims, naval sims, flight sims. Then everything started to fossilize on WWII. FPS and simulations. Enough is enough. Just how many fricking times can you play an uboat in the middle of the atlantic ?
Ubisoft grow a pair of @@ and leave WWII behind, start exploring the early cold war for instance.

sorry matey, but uboat warfare ww2 and all the diffferent technologies that came about to defeat the uboat, makes for exciting stuff.

[Brag]

What are we gonna sinkl in early Cold War?

Refrigerator ships?

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by IanC

Size doesn't matter (and no, that's not what my wife said).

It ain't the size of the boat, it's the motion of the ocean! At least that's what all the little dinghies say.