Immersion, Immersion, Immersion

[TarJak]

This one's for you mookiemookie.

Can't have too much of a good thing?

Or can you?

Is immersion the be all and end all or or just part of the enjoyment. Discuss:

[Mikhayl]

Once Destroyers are coming for you, you can never have enough of it

[mookiemookie]

[TarJak]

Ouch!

[Sailor Steve]

<SS shoves TJ's head under the water> "How's THAT for immersion, bub?"

[Onkel Neal]

Immersion:
LeoVampire ROW
Tomi99 VIIc Engine room
Racerboy's equally great Exhaust Smoke
Diving Duck Open Hatch
Rubini's wonderful Water Streams
Evan82's Uniforms II
OLC's Modified Searchlight Beams

Gameplay, no one says it is not important, it is the heart of the game, but without "immersion", may as well play a board game.




Immersion:





No Immersion:

[V.C. Sniper]

Sound is a VERY VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT factor in immersion.

[Jimbuna]

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by TarJak

This one's for you mookiemookie.

Can't have too much of a good thing?

Or can you?

Is immersion the be all and end all or or just part of the enjoyment. Discuss:

I think you can have too much of a good thing, although it is part of the enjoyment, but not the end all be all.Immersion is a buzzword around here. But what is immersion exactly? When people say "immersion", what i think they are referring to is a believable and detailed graphic enviorment that makes you feel as if your really there. In less kind terms - eye candy, which has become something of an (unhealthy IMO) obsession with many folks.

Since sub sims are trying to recreate something (historical renactment?) then yes, immersion makes sense, and it is, and should be part of the equation. However immersion alone does not a simulation make. In the end, it is an argument over finite development time, and of form and function. I maintain that form should never take priority over function, or in other words, form should never come at the price of function. If you put a shiny wrapper around a POS, all you end up with is a shiny POS, but a POS none the less.

(Not saying SH5 is a POS, but i have no other metaphor that convey's my point better)

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Since sub sims are trying to recreate something (historical renactment?) then yes, immersion makes sense, and it is, and should be part of the equation. However immersion alone does not a simulation make. In the end, it is an argument over finite development time, and of form and function. I maintain that form should never take priority over function, or in other words, form should never come at the price of function. If you put a shiny wrapper around a POS, all you end up with is a shiny POS, but a POS none the less.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Made me laugh

[TarJak]

I think the tow most misused words on these threads are gameplay and immersion.

What is gameplay?

What is immersion?

Why are they different and should they be separated at all?

[Ducimus]

>>What is gameplay?

Actions you take. Things you do.

>>What is immersion?

Being engrossed in an atmosphere, scene or setting, that is done well enough that it suspends disbelief. so well infact, that you feel you are are there within that scene or setting.

Yes the two are different and separate, particuarly in context with a submarine sim. As an illustration of how they are different, you can sit there and watch a good movie in surround sound, doing absolutely nothing, making no decisions or taking any action of any kind, and still feel immersed. If immersion is being defined as the gameplay, then by that standard, we could call a FPS a simulation.

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by TarJak

I think the tow most misused words on these threads are gameplay and immersion.

What is gameplay?

What is immersion?

Why are they different and should they be separated at all?

Here's a few games that are similar (or from the same series) but excel differently at either immersion or gameplay. This is a purely personal opinion.

Immersion: Morrowind
Gameplay: Oblivion

Immersion: Final Fantasy 9
Gameplay: Final Fantasy 7

Immersion: Flight Unlimited 2
Gameplay: Flight Unlimited 1 (or FSX or FU 3)

Immersion: Mafia
Gameplay: GTA (any since 3)

Immersion: CoD some levels
Gameplay: CoD other levels

Immersion: Battle of Britain 2 and European Air War
Gameplay: IL-2

Immersion: Diablo 1
Gameplay: Diablo 2

Immersion: Wing Commander 4
Gameplay: I-War 1 and 2

Immersion: Max Payne 1
Gameplay: Max Payne 2

Immersion: Jedi Knight 1
Gameplay: Jedi Outcast

Other immersive games: AVP1, Condemned 1, HoMM3 (weird, I know), Fallout (all of them), Icewind Dale 2, and tons more.

Games that might've been immersive for me, but aren't: GTA4, Crysis, Bioshock.

As a rule of thumb, for me, new games are not immersive no matter what they do. I miss the old days. Today graphics just can't balance the weak stories, bugs, bad design.

Immersion is a mix of both gameplay AND excellent design. Simply pouring 1000 gameplay or realistic features doesn't make a game immersive. For example GTA San Andreas had the most options but failed to be as immersive as Mafia. Morrowind for me illustrates how a game with less features and worse graphics can still beat a realistic looking game (oblivion) simply by being perfect in it's originality and story and pure dread.

SH3 is one immersive MF... I can't explain how they did it. SH4 might have better graphics but... it's not even close. SH5 doesn't appear to be that immersive... not sure why. I won't judge it from just a few screenshots but I already expect it to lack that "special thing" that SH3 had.

[OrangeYoshi]

Something I can add to karamazovnew's list:

Immersion: Ace Combat 4 and 5
Gameplay: Ace Combat Zero

There was all kinds of stuff you could do in Ace Combat Zero that was "better" or more in-depth (plus better AI) than in 4 and 5, but I always preferred playing 4 and 5 simply for the great stories they offered when you played them.

Immersion: Any MGS game

Yes, about half of the playing time of those games are cut-scenes and whatnot, but you get so wrapped up in it that you don't care.

Immersion: Silent Hunter 3
Gameplay: Silent Hunter 4

I've just never gotten the same feeling playing SH4 (even with OM) as I got with SH3 and GWX. (I don't want to start a discussion on this, just sharing my thoughts)

Immersion: Rome: Total War
Gameplay: Medieval 2: Total War

Medieval was much better in the technical aspects, but when you played R:TW, it felt like you were there in a sense that M2:TW came close to, but failed to equal.

Immersion: Europa Universalis 2 and 3
Gameplay: Victoria: Empire Under the Sun

Vicky is way, WAY more complicated and has more technical aspects, but EU3 is simply more fun because Vicky gives you so much complexity that you can't really get into the game.