Immersion, Immersion, Immersion

Jimbuna · 01-12-10, 04:18 PM

Onkel Neal · 01-12-10, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Made me laugh

TarJak · 01-12-10, 08:35 PM

I think the tow most misused words on these threads are gameplay and immersion.

What is gameplay?

What is immersion?

Why are they different and should they be separated at all?

Ducimus · 01-12-10, 08:49 PM

>>What is gameplay?

Actions you take. Things you do.

>>What is immersion?

Being engrossed in an atmosphere, scene or setting, that is done well enough that it suspends disbelief. so well infact, that you feel you are are there within that scene or setting.

Yes the two are different and separate, particuarly in context with a submarine sim. As an illustration of how they are different, you can sit there and watch a good movie in surround sound, doing absolutely nothing, making no decisions or taking any action of any kind, and still feel immersed. If immersion is being defined as the gameplay, then by that standard, we could call a FPS a simulation.

karamazovnew · 01-12-10, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

I think the tow most misused words on these threads are gameplay and immersion.

What is gameplay?

What is immersion?

Why are they different and should they be separated at all?

Here's a few games that are similar (or from the same series) but excel differently at either immersion or gameplay. This is a purely personal opinion.

Immersion: Morrowind
Gameplay: Oblivion

Immersion: Final Fantasy 9
Gameplay: Final Fantasy 7

Immersion: Flight Unlimited 2
Gameplay: Flight Unlimited 1 (or FSX or FU 3)

Immersion: Mafia
Gameplay: GTA (any since 3)

Immersion: CoD some levels
Gameplay: CoD other levels

Immersion: Battle of Britain 2 and European Air War
Gameplay: IL-2

Immersion: Diablo 1
Gameplay: Diablo 2

Immersion: Wing Commander 4
Gameplay: I-War 1 and 2

Immersion: Max Payne 1
Gameplay: Max Payne 2

Immersion: Jedi Knight 1
Gameplay: Jedi Outcast

Other immersive games: AVP1, Condemned 1, HoMM3 (weird, I know), Fallout (all of them), Icewind Dale 2, and tons more.

Games that might've been immersive for me, but aren't: GTA4, Crysis, Bioshock.

As a rule of thumb, for me, new games are not immersive no matter what they do. I miss the old days. Today graphics just can't balance the weak stories, bugs, bad design.

Immersion is a mix of both gameplay AND excellent design. Simply pouring 1000 gameplay or realistic features doesn't make a game immersive. For example GTA San Andreas had the most options but failed to be as immersive as Mafia. Morrowind for me illustrates how a game with less features and worse graphics can still beat a realistic looking game (oblivion) simply by being perfect in it's originality and story and pure dread.

SH3 is one immersive MF... I can't explain how they did it. SH4 might have better graphics but... it's not even close. SH5 doesn't appear to be that immersive... not sure why. I won't judge it from just a few screenshots but I already expect it to lack that "special thing" that SH3 had.

OrangeYoshi · 01-12-10, 09:17 PM

Something I can add to karamazovnew's list:

Immersion: Ace Combat 4 and 5
Gameplay: Ace Combat Zero

There was all kinds of stuff you could do in Ace Combat Zero that was "better" or more in-depth (plus better AI) than in 4 and 5, but I always preferred playing 4 and 5 simply for the great stories they offered when you played them.

Immersion: Any MGS game

Yes, about half of the playing time of those games are cut-scenes and whatnot, but you get so wrapped up in it that you don't care.

Immersion: Silent Hunter 3
Gameplay: Silent Hunter 4

I've just never gotten the same feeling playing SH4 (even with OM) as I got with SH3 and GWX. (I don't want to start a discussion on this, just sharing my thoughts)

Immersion: Rome: Total War
Gameplay: Medieval 2: Total War

Medieval was much better in the technical aspects, but when you played R:TW, it felt like you were there in a sense that M2:TW came close to, but failed to equal.

Immersion: Europa Universalis 2 and 3
Gameplay: Victoria: Empire Under the Sun

Vicky is way, WAY more complicated and has more technical aspects, but EU3 is simply more fun because Vicky gives you so much complexity that you can't really get into the game.

karamazovnew · 01-12-10, 09:22 PM

Rooome, how could I forget about that one?! Good one Yoshi

TarJak · 01-12-10, 09:23 PM

Yes I understand that there are elements that are seperable but what about gameplay elements that add to the immersion? Surely things like having to trim your boat properly would be both?

I'm not convinved that to have a great game one should override the other. Both elements need to be there IMHO to ensure that the enjoyment you gain from the game (let's face it this is the only thing that matters), is maximised.

mookiemookie · 01-12-10, 10:03 PM

I think gameplay in a sim does more for immersion than any pretty graphics can. If I'm faced with the same decisions to make, tactical ability, equipment capabilities and operational situations that a U-boat captain had, then that means I am completely immersed in the role.

Of course that doesn't mean that graphics are unimportant, but they should be second priority to getting the gameplay aspects of the sim correct.

karamazovnew · 01-12-10, 10:20 PM

Unlike fantasy games where the designers tailor everything to their possibilities, simulators are much less likely to achieve immersion factor. Until the Holodeck comes along, we won't have a truly perfect simulator. The devs need to cut corners, a lot of them. Each gameplay option must somehow tie in to the rest AND at the same time, not remind you of any missing features.
For example, in a Flight sim, any button I can't use in the cockpit is an immersion killer.

SH3 didn't show you your latitude and longitude. It also never showed the base time. SH4 did both of these, thus presenting the problem: "why the heck can't we use stars for navigation?! Why did they use a cilindrical map?!". I bet you've never asked that question in SH3. Can't reach America? Increase fuel capacity, case closed.
Allowing the player to do some things manually might actually hurt the game, if those things are not done properly to fit into the whole picture.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some realistic aspects of working on a sub. But I'd rather see ALL of them or none at all. I was one of those asking for a sextant. Until I actually used a real one on a ship and realized it would actually hurt more "pretending" to use one in the game than not having it at all.

So I'd rather not list any features I'd like to see. We've passed the point of no return, the game is already in Beta so all that remains is to wait and see the finished game. I'm very curious on how they managed to integrate the interior and new crew into the overall gameplay. I bet that in SH5, as with SH3, they played the card of immersion as opposed to simulator.

What's a simulator? In my days of FS2004 I collected real plane operation manuals. There was one plane in particular Level D's 757 that blew me completely because I learned how to fly it in game by reading the real manual. That's a simulator.

tonschk · 01-23-10, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeYoshi

Immersion: Silent Hunter 3
Gameplay: Silent Hunter 4

I've just never gotten the same feeling playing SH4 (even with OM) as I got with SH3 and GWX. (I don't want to start a discussion on this, just sharing my thoughts)

.

I agree , I give up SH4 because have too many flaws even with the mods added , and went back to SH3 plus GWX Gold

01-12-10, 04:18 PM	#1
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,788 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	__________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

01-12-10, 08:49 PM	#4
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	>>What is gameplay? Actions you take. Things you do. >>What is immersion? Being engrossed in an atmosphere, scene or setting, that is done well enough that it suspends disbelief. so well infact, that you feel you are are there within that scene or setting. Yes the two are different and separate, particuarly in context with a submarine sim. As an illustration of how they are different, you can sit there and watch a good movie in surround sound, doing absolutely nothing, making no decisions or taking any action of any kind, and still feel immersed. If immersion is being defined as the gameplay, then by that standard, we could call a FPS a simulation. Last edited by Ducimus; 01-12-10 at 08:58 PM. Reason: rewrote a poorly worded sentence.

01-12-10, 09:17 PM	#6
OrangeYoshi Gunner Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: In your computer screen Posts: 100 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 0	Something I can add to karamazovnew's list: Immersion: Ace Combat 4 and 5 Gameplay: Ace Combat Zero There was all kinds of stuff you could do in Ace Combat Zero that was "better" or more in-depth (plus better AI) than in 4 and 5, but I always preferred playing 4 and 5 simply for the great stories they offered when you played them. Immersion: Any MGS game Yes, about half of the playing time of those games are cut-scenes and whatnot, but you get so wrapped up in it that you don't care. Immersion: Silent Hunter 3 Gameplay: Silent Hunter 4 I've just never gotten the same feeling playing SH4 (even with OM) as I got with SH3 and GWX. (I don't want to start a discussion on this, just sharing my thoughts) Immersion: Rome: Total War Gameplay: Medieval 2: Total War Medieval was much better in the technical aspects, but when you played R:TW, it felt like you were there in a sense that M2:TW came close to, but failed to equal. Immersion: Europa Universalis 2 and 3 Gameplay: Victoria: Empire Under the Sun Vicky is way, WAY more complicated and has more technical aspects, but EU3 is simply more fun because Vicky gives you so much complexity that you can't really get into the game. __________________ OrangeYoshi

01-12-10, 10:03 PM	#9
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	I think gameplay in a sim does more for immersion than any pretty graphics can. If I'm faced with the same decisions to make, tactical ability, equipment capabilities and operational situations that a U-boat captain had, then that means I am completely immersed in the role. Of course that doesn't mean that graphics are unimportant, but they should be second priority to getting the gameplay aspects of the sim correct. __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

01-12-10, 08:35 PM	#3
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	I think the tow most misused words on these threads are gameplay and immersion. What is gameplay? What is immersion? Why are they different and should they be separated at all?

01-12-10, 09:22 PM	#7
karamazovnew The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,403 Downloads: 151 Uploads: 0	Rooome, how could I forget about that one?! Good one Yoshi

01-12-10, 09:23 PM	#8
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	Yes I understand that there are elements that are seperable but what about gameplay elements that add to the immersion? Surely things like having to trim your boat properly would be both? I'm not convinved that to have a great game one should override the other. Both elements need to be there IMHO to ensure that the enjoyment you gain from the game (let's face it this is the only thing that matters), is maximised.

01-12-10, 10:20 PM	#10
karamazovnew The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,403 Downloads: 151 Uploads: 0	Unlike fantasy games where the designers tailor everything to their possibilities, simulators are much less likely to achieve immersion factor. Until the Holodeck comes along, we won't have a truly perfect simulator. The devs need to cut corners, a lot of them. Each gameplay option must somehow tie in to the rest AND at the same time, not remind you of any missing features. For example, in a Flight sim, any button I can't use in the cockpit is an immersion killer. SH3 didn't show you your latitude and longitude. It also never showed the base time. SH4 did both of these, thus presenting the problem: "why the heck can't we use stars for navigation?! Why did they use a cilindrical map?!". I bet you've never asked that question in SH3. Can't reach America? Increase fuel capacity, case closed. Allowing the player to do some things manually might actually hurt the game, if those things are not done properly to fit into the whole picture. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some realistic aspects of working on a sub. But I'd rather see ALL of them or none at all. I was one of those asking for a sextant. Until I actually used a real one on a ship and realized it would actually hurt more "pretending" to use one in the game than not having it at all. So I'd rather not list any features I'd like to see. We've passed the point of no return, the game is already in Beta so all that remains is to wait and see the finished game. I'm very curious on how they managed to integrate the interior and new crew into the overall gameplay. I bet that in SH5, as with SH3, they played the card of immersion as opposed to simulator. What's a simulator? In my days of FS2004 I collected real plane operation manuals. There was one plane in particular Level D's 757 that blew me completely because I learned how to fly it in game by reading the real manual. That's a simulator.