And why exacly does the full 3D interior add nothing to gameplay?

[CaptJodan]

I gotta admit, in my view the interior is a big selling point for me, though I'm hoping they don't arcade the game down as some fear here in order to give it to us (that scope, ick!). I realize it's not everyone's cup of tea...most people are concerned about racking up the tonnage, but it's a big thing, especially during an otherwise "boring" DC attack, to be able to see more than the control room. A couple of additional reasons I'm excited about this:

1. I don't foresee myself getting the chance to tour a U-boat anytime soon in my life. I'm nowhere near any museums that have them. Closest boat I have is the USS. Drum. A great tour to be sure, but not a U-boat. This gives me the chance to walk through one in some fashion.

2. I remember back when we transitioned from SH2 to SH3. What a huge, huge difference. From no 1st person vantage point of almost any sort all the way to an active control room with swinging meat! Swinging meat man! You got DCed, and the meat swung! (It's like the rolling pencil in the TB-3 in IL-2) This was a huge immersion factor I enjoyed (and still do enjoy, thanks to OM for SH4), and to expand on that immersion is a big thing.

3. People work miracles around here as long as the core of the game is relatively solid. If the convoys aren't moving about right, or the torpedoes don't have a big enough bang, or the boat seems unusually rugged, this community will hunt down these problems and fix them. Vanilla SH3 and 4 didn't exactly come out of the box as good as they ended up either, but MOST of the core of those games was good enough to make these games great with the help of this community. In contrast, SH2 was something of an exercise in futility. Mods improved it, but...come on. If the devs can make the core of this game not resemble some kind of 1st person shooter or PT Boats while dropping the ball on the convoys and other things that the community can fix, then I'd be happy*. The interiors seem to be a core feature that I'm glad is added. I hope if they sacrifice something else in order to put those interiors in, then they sacrifice something we can change.

*Note, I'm not exactly looking to give modders more work. Just that there are always compromises with a game, and no game is 100% perfect out of the box (these days, far, far less than 100%). I take comfort in the fact that the SH series at least has the ability to be modded. Some games aren't, or are limited to skins and such.

[Carotio]

I concur that I have got the same feeling from time to time when reading posts, but just because some won't visit the extra compartments very much, doesn't mean that others won't.
I remember when SH3 was out, people asked for them to be added in a add on. It never came. SH4 came, with fleet boats, but still no extra interiors.
Now they add them plus they give them some functionality, how much, I don't know though. They will not be 100 % realistic modeled. There are way too many details to make then, and too few systems would be able to handle it.
I'm pretty cool that there are extra compartments, and if they are only 75 % correct modeled, then so be it, as long as the working parts work correctly.
The central room f.i. is very small and narrow, but in the game there's plenty of room. Just an example of what is acceptable. But it would be nice if it's corrected.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by CaptJodan

I gotta admit, in my view the interior is a big selling point for me, though I'm hoping they don't arcade the game down as some fear here in order to give it to us (that scope, ick!). I realize it's not everyone's cup of tea...most people are concerned about racking up the tonnage, but it's a big thing, especially during an otherwise "boring" DC attack, to be able to see more than the control room. A couple of additional reasons I'm excited about this:

1. I don't foresee myself getting the chance to tour a U-boat anytime soon in my life. I'm nowhere near any museums that have them. Closest boat I have is the USS. Drum. A great tour to be sure, but not a U-boat. This gives me the chance to walk through one in some fashion.

2. I remember back when we transitioned from SH2 to SH3. What a huge, huge difference. From no 1st person vantage point of almost any sort all the way to an active control room with swinging meat! Swinging meat man! You got DCed, and the meat swung! (It's like the rolling pencil in the TB-3 in IL-2) This was a huge immersion factor I enjoyed (and still do enjoy, thanks to OM for SH4), and to expand on that immersion is a big thing.

3. People work miracles around here as long as the core of the game is relatively solid. If the convoys aren't moving about right, or the torpedoes don't have a big enough bang, or the boat seems unusually rugged, this community will hunt down these problems and fix them. Vanilla SH3 and 4 didn't exactly come out of the box as good as they ended up either, but MOST of the core of those games was good enough to make these games great with the help of this community. In contrast, SH2 was something of an exercise in futility. Mods improved it, but...come on. If the devs can make the core of this game not resemble some kind of 1st person shooter or PT Boats while dropping the ball on the convoys and other things that the community can fix, then I'd be happy*. The interiors seem to be a core feature that I'm glad is added. I hope if they sacrifice something else in order to put those interiors in, then they sacrifice something we can change.

*Note, I'm not exactly looking to give modders more work. Just that there are always compromises with a game, and no game is 100% perfect out of the box (these days, far, far less than 100%). I take comfort in the fact that the SH series at least has the ability to be modded. Some games aren't, or are limited to skins and such.

I like the way you approach this. Having a fully playable U-boat gives the long time subsim player something quite new. Sure, this may narrow the scope somewhat in some regards, but it does expand the Role Playing element of the game, a new frontier. Some people have asked, "Why U-boats? It's been done in SH3." The full interior element of SH5 gives you a different flavor, and different gameplaying experience. For me, no matter how much I like a particular game, such as SH3 or SH4, I really relish something new. I don't think SH5 will fully supplant SH3 in every way, but it will be an upgrade in some areas, and that's definitely worth a look.

Just opinion but this is a feature that I suspect will get tiresome after the first patrol, when all the scripted dialog has been heard or read and all the compartments have been explored.

FPS games generally have a world or at least a city/battlefield to explore, in a U-Boat you have five perhaps six compartments and a sameness that will lead to boredom pretty fast, probably faster than the Modders can generate new faces and text. Provided of course, that such mods will be possible.

My style of play in SH3 sees me spend TC time on the map screen and attacks/evasions in the control room, on the bridge or at the periscope. I cannot see this habit changing since commanders are likely to be at those positions doing what needs done. Visiting the hydrophone is rare, that's why there is an operator to report contacts. Improving that particular reports/returns dialog would be a huge improvement but I have never seen this on anybodies wish lists. In-game cooks seem to have greater priority.

For me, the ramped up external graphics and the ability to travel about the boat really will add nothing but game loading time at the expense of hard drive space. But to each his own.

Good Hunting

[Méo]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

For me, the ramped up external graphics and the ability to travel about the boat really will add nothing but game loading time at the expense of hard drive space

Some were whining because this feature was not in SH3, now some are whining because this feature is in this time...

Originally Posted by Méo

Some were whining because this feature was not in SH3, now some are whining because this feature is in this time...

Ahhhh. The joys of selective reading. There was no whining on my part, I was not complaining that the features are included merely that I cannot see using them. Are you saying that the new graphics will not increase load time on an older machine nor take up more H-D space? And you know this how? Perhaps you missed the part about "...to each his own"?

I'm with SS on this, outstanding graphics without the features he mentions has an arcade flavour about it, however I will reserve specific judgement on SH5 until release.

Good Hunting

[Méo]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

Are you saying that the new graphics will not increase load time on an older machine nor take up more H-D space?

Every new game does that, only evolution.

Edit: look, I didn't mean to insult you, to me the full 3-D interior is a good thing, even if I would have prefer to see Wolfpacks first.

[Sailor Steve]

Before SH3 we never even had 'limited compartments'. Some old-time players are still of the opinion that no matter what SH3's 3D views brought to the game, Aces Of The Deep still had the better gameplay, and is still the greatest sub sim of all time. I disagree with this, partly because modders were able to fix some of the troublesome parts of SH3, and partly because the 3D harbors and interiors really did increase the immersion, the feel of being there, dramatically.

I'm with Hitman. It does look like a major step forward, and maybe it will drastically change the way we play the game. But if, for all this, the things we've been complaining about for five years now - the broken AI, the bizarre behaviour of enemy ships, the lack of wolfpacks and everything else - then the gameplay will not be improved in spite of it all, and it will still be broken. That is what the complaints are really about.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

in a U-Boat you have five perhaps six compartments and a sameness that will lead to boredom pretty fast, probably faster than the Modders can generate new faces and text.

Perfect, SH5 will also simulate historically realistic boredom

I hear what you are saying. Yeah, you may be right. But another way to look at it; in SH1, Aces, SH2-3-4, and many subsims, the main game consists of leaving port, ramping up TC until you encounter something, then go to the bridge and scope, intercept and fire torpedoes, then evade. That is the gamplay pattern, and it could be considered repetitious too? I'm not displuting what you say, but I think adding the RPG and full interior could add to the cycle of gameplay that already exists in an SH game.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Before SH3 we never even had 'limited compartments'. Some old-time players are still of the opinion that no matter what SH3's 3D views brought to the game, Aces Of The Deep still had the better gameplay, and is still the greatest sub sim of all time. I disagree with this, partly because modders were able to fix some of the troublesome parts of SH3, and partly because the 3D harbors and interiors really did increase the immersion, the feel of being there, dramatically.

I rarely disagree with you and I sure ain't doing it here I remember when SH2 came out with no control room screen, all you had was the background to the periscope. Does that make a difference? Well, does to me. Every step you can take to bring the player into the game is a good one. Does that mean that AI and realism are not as important? Not at all, but nothing wrong with trying to do a good job on both. Does anyone want to go back to pre-SH3 and no crew? Pre-SH2 and very limited views on the bridge?

[Onkel Neal]

PS: I played Aces last night while my daughter occupied my game rig playing Bioshock. Aces was great 15 years ago... it's barely above arcade now compared to SH3&4

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I rarely disagree with you and I sure ain't doing it here

Sure you are, and rightfully so.

No, I didn't like SH2's total lack of interface either, especially since AOD and SH1 (and Silent Service) at least had a view of the control room from which we could click the various functions to get to those screens. I also consider SH4 to be a small step backward in that regard, as I really liked clicking on the officer icons to access their orders and reports, rather than a technical-looking emblem.

But I still stand by my opinion. If the major gameplay functions are still broken and can't be fixed by modding, then all this new stuff is nothing but a waste of everybody's time.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Sure you are, and rightfully so.

No, I didn't like SH2's total lack of interface either, especially since AOD and SH1 (and Silent Service) at least had a view of the control room from which we could click the various functions to get to those screens. I also consider SH4 to be a small step backward in that regard, as I really liked clicking on the officer icons to access their orders and reports, rather than a technical-looking emblem.

But I still stand by my opinion. If the major gameplay functions are still broken and can't be fixed by modding, then all this new stuff is nothing but a waste of everybody's time.

Somehow this discussion seems to have gone from "why does having full 3-d interior add nothing to gameplay?" to "adding 3D interiors means gameplay will be broken". If the major gameplay functions are broken, yeah, there is no game.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Somehow this discussion seems to have gone from "why does having full 3-d interior add nothing to gameplay?" to "adding 3D interiors means gameplay will be broken". If the major gameplay functions are broken, yeah, there is no game.

I didn't mean to turn it into an argument, and certainly Oscar's original post is strictly about the 3D First Person aspect itself, and not compared to other things. That said, his question was "Why will it not add to gameplay?", and part of the problem is the way different people react to the word 'gameplay'. To some 'gameplay' refers specifically to how the game functions, that is does it operate realistically. I'm one of those, and to us all the rest is fluff. Good fluff, for sure, and I love anything that adds to the ease of immersion. I still tout SH3 over SH4 just because of the harbor traffic mods, so I can't claim I don't appreciate eye candy. Or ear candy, since DBSM, which I translated from SH2 to SH3, is certainly not required for good gameplay. Nor is having the merchants you sink be given names, and we all know where I stand on that one.

So I definitely want to see this, and hope it works well, and hope the other things get fixed as well.

I think where most of the people who will disagree with Oscar is in the idea that immersion and gameplay are not the same things. Yes, this will add greatly to the immersion, and that is very important. But gameplay? I disagree, but only in the semantics.

[Méo]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Perfect, SH5 will also simulate historically realistic boredom

I hear what you are saying. Yeah, you may be right. But another way to look at it; in SH1, Aces, SH2-3-4, and many subsims, the main game consists of leaving port, ramping up TC until you encounter something, then go to the bridge and scope, intercept and fire torpedoes, then evade. That is the gamplay pattern, and it could be considered repetitious too? I'm not displuting what you say, but I think adding the RPG and full interior could add to the cycle of gameplay that already exists in an SH game.

Agreed, very good points!

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I don't think SH5 will fully supplant SH3 in every way

I hope you're wrong on this and I hope you don't say that after seeing SH5 in the last subsim meeting.

[Dowly]

I love the 3D interiors. It's a small but a welcome change of scenery when you're on a 1xTC patrol and take a walk around the boat before going back to bridge/bunk. Could use more crewmembers tho.