How well liked are modding among UBI/developers?

[PL_Andrev]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

You're putting the pirate at a disadvantage, not by crippling their game, but by having them miss out on extras and freebies.

Wrong way. Extras and freebies in not essential of game. A better way is to sell the 'demo' with only one type of uboat, one type of enemy warship, and one type of mechant. And if you have legal verison you can upload extras: additional units + updates + critical patches.

[Arclight]

Originally Posted by sober

UPlay , what the hell is that cr@p .

Testing Ubisoft's "Frequent Flyer" Rewards Program With Assassin's Creed II

Basically you earn points by unlocking achievements (or by simply keep playing it, not sure). Those points can be spend on unlocks in that or other games.

I could spend my Uplay points through an interface in Assassin's Creed II on some unlocks for the game. But, according to what I found on the Uplay website today, I can also spend those points on unlocks for the upcoming games Splinter Cell Conviction and R.U.S.E. For Assassin's, the unlocks include a PS3 dashboard theme, a new outfit for Ezio Auditore, the game's hero, the ability to hold more throwing knives or, most notably, access to a family crypt.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

One of the things I remember most vividly about the last Subsim meetup was Dan telling Kpt Lehmann and the rest of the GWX boys that even the dev team had no idea how they did some of the things they did. I'd say that's a pretty nice compliment.

I think Ubi realizes that modding extends a title's life considerably. There's not a whole lot of games released in 2005 that still have the following that SH3 has. And I'm sure SH4 will still have a strong following well into the future thanks to the talents of folks like Ducimus and the RFB team.

Originally Posted by JScones

If Ubisoft Romania (the developer) or Ubisoft (the publisher) thought modding was an issue, they'd be waving their License Agreement in the faces of every modder here, or doing the "Oleg"...

Precisely...and I have many joint/group photos that bear testimony to a good, positive, respectful and friendly relationship between both parties.

[Exakt]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I think Ubi realizes that modding extends a title's life considerably. There's not a whole lot of games released in 2005 that still have the following that SH3 has. And I'm sure SH4 will still have a strong following well into the future thanks to the talents of folks like Ducimus and the RFB team.

Yes, Ubisoft is almost like Valve, supporting most mods, quite unofficially, but haven't heard of a C&D from Ubisoft, unlike EA or VU.

Here is an example of a game that got its life extended through modding, FreeSpace 2. That game was released in 1999 and there is still a strong modding community behind it and it is still going, even 9 years after release...

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Precisely...and I have many joint/group photos that bear testimony to a good, positive, respectful and friendly relationship between both parties.

And I have seen them published on the various sites dedicated to the SH series.....

I don't doubt what has gone on before but I was one of those that was gobsmacked when Infinity Ward withdrew support for Modding and dedicated servers for Modern Warfare 2.....

I am a massive fan of this series and would not want to do Ubisoft a misservice without knowing the facts and am looking forward to this impending release but Uplay concerns me so...

any chance of the 'old boys network' getting an answer about the position with Uplay???

Maverick

[Arclight]

Uplay is of no concern, see post #32 if you don't know what it is.

It's just an attempt to create a community, like Bioware did with Dragon Age and it's online services. It also tries to keep people playing by offering rewards.

[Ducimus]

My personal opinion based on past experience, I think that to the dev's, modders, and modding is a double edged sword. Without going into details, on one hand, it encouraged sales, on another it discourages sales. I have heard everything from, "Id like to buy you a beer" to, "everytime i hear that, it drives another nail in the coffin of modablity".

In the end, i think the devs have sided with modding, in that the pros outweigh the cons. Many aspects of SH4 were designed to be more easily modded, and its my understanding that SH5 will stay with that trend, with many files being as easy, or even easier to mod then before. (just scuttlebutt, don't hold me to that) Furthermore, in the past , one of the devs, has made themselves available for questions via email, of which i am grateful for. It's not often you hear of a game developer fielding emails from modders, and even offering ideas of his own.

So overall, i think modders are fairly well liked in general, but maybe not so much if you start costing them sales revenue with newer titles.

[Armistead]

Modding keeps game alive and a community strong. If not for Mods these forum would have died a long time ago with the game, because of mod's they have large forums to come promote their upcoming series.

I'm sure their marketing has debated these issues out to the end and love modders.

[FIREWALL]

Originally Posted by JScones

If Ubisoft Romania (the developer) or Ubisoft (the publisher) thought modding was an issue, they'd be waving their License Agreement in the faces of every modder here, or doing the "Oleg"...

I'll keep this simple because I''m tired and it's late.

You have a company jaeson and you could sue someone for stealing or just ripping off your work.

In the case of the GWX team who put their heart and soul and probably more in their work, are scattered all over the world.

They couldn't come up with the money to start a legal action no matter what disclaimer they add at the end of their mod.

That unfortunately is the real world.

Hell their stuff is already on a Pirate site.

As for Oleg, He can go pound sand. There's tons of mods and reworks for IL2. And he can't stop it.

To finish. My admiration for the GWX team is boundless. They made SH-3 what it should have been. And I don't want to leave out the other modders that took it to Greatness to.

SHV might be fantastic or just smoke and mirrors, only 2010 will tell.

But SH-3 GWX GOLD will always be the standard to compare all to.

[JScones]

Yes, you must be tired, as your post has absolutely no correlation with my quote whatsoever. Pls read it again and tell me where I have mentioned the rights of modders. You'll find it's the contrary.

BTW, practically every SH3Cmdr user is breaking the License Agreement...but unless I find evidence of it being sold for profit, it's not an issue. There's even mod packs (for other games) that include JSGME without my permission, but again, provided their wares are free, it's not an issue.

[elanaiba]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

My personal opinion based on past experience, I think that to the dev's, modders, and modding is a double edged sword. Without going into details, on one hand, it encouraged sales, on another it discourages sales. I have heard everything from, "Id like to buy you a beer" to, "everytime i hear that, it drives another nail in the coffin of modablity".

To clarify what Ducimus says above - and you guys know I'm not here in official form - for MY part I think we owe the modders a lot. I will always push for moddability, while our titles should be groundbreaking in technology/features that no modders could achieve in general.

But everytime people say things like "with SH3/GWX I have no reason to buy SHIV" and maybe "screw ubi" there's a danger that somebody around here will say OMG stop mods. It happened. And the thing is, people mostly mean "I don't really like US submarines so I stick with the uboats in sh3".

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

But everytime people say things like "with SH3/GWX I have no reason to buy SHIV" and maybe "screw ubi" there's a danger that somebody around here will say OMG stop mods. It happened. And the thing is, people mostly mean "I don't really like US submarines so I stick with the uboats in sh3".

Not all players use mods, as both SH3 and SH4 (patched) are perfectly enjoyable games. And not all players that use mods actually understand what those mods do. So yeah, some will say "screw ubi" from ignorance, not because of flag-waving. It takes time to create mods, a lot of time, mainly because the game, although moddable, lacks tools or tutorials. There are also hard coded limits that make you rethink, give up, start over, adapt, cut features and so on. Where would we have been without the S3D Editor?

Yeah, it took 3-4 years of continuous modding to get SH3 where it is now. By that time, both SH4 and UBM were out. It took 3 years to make SH4 what it is now and less than 2 years to turn UBM into something that it shouldn't have been (SH3+GWX+SH4graphics). Patience and understanding is required.

Mods are made to make the game harder and more realistic. Some of them, like late war GWX and early war TMO are so hard that they'd completely confuse any starting player and make him delete the game. Why on earth would you devs create an impossible game? What did some players expect of SH4? Germans again but HARDER than GWX? SH4 is completely different on many aspects, proof that you devs are not blind or stupid. My only problem with SH4 was the unusable Notepad in the german interface (took me 3 months to change that). It's a shame that a few players don't think about the big picture. As I said, patience is required. We're a few months before SH5 comes out, a game which I have no doubt will blow everyone away. In the meantime, I suggest all players try these:

SH3 vanilla: fun but shows it's age
SH3 with NYGM: fun
SH3 with GWX: hard
SH4 vanilla, US side: fun
SH4 with RFB: hard, on par with GWX
SH4 with TMO: very very hard
SH4 UBM, vanilla: fun but only with Automatic targeting.
SH4 UBM with OM: hard, on par with GWX in almost all aspects.

All are at 100% quality and saying that one is better than another would be idiotic. Players that say they'll stick to SH3 with GWX and OLC, now have a perfect incentive to switch to SH4 (OMEGU).

But I guess this will be a good lesson for the Ubi suits. Modding, left by itself and unaided, takes too long and can interfere with future titles. You guys really had to push the limits this time, but it seems you'll deliver . Might I also have another suggestion. Machinima can be a very very powerful sales tool. I strongly suggest creating some support (tools) for easy and realistic filming, interface hiding and behavior scripting to allow more films like this one: . It made me play the US and forget about how much I hated the US boats

[FIREWALL]

Originally Posted by JScones

Yes, you must be tired, as your post has absolutely no correlation with my quote whatsoever. Pls read it again and tell me where I have mentioned the rights of modders. You'll find it's the contrary.

BTW, practically every SH3Cmdr user is breaking the License Agreement...but unless I find evidence of it being sold for profit, it's not an issue. There's even mod packs (for other games) that include JSGME without my permission, but again, provided their wares are free, it's not an issue.

I was tired. Nothing was aimed at you.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that all the copyright and liense agreements are useless against a theif that wants to steal your stuff, package it a little differently and sell it on the internet.

Physicaly catching him to serve a summons is near impossible.

GWx team as an example. Earlier in their beginnings their work was stolen and used in an add-on for SH3, sold on the internet and at all major stores.

Gamestop, BestBuy, Fryes elec. to name a few and are still to this day on the shelves of two.

To add salt to the wound they (the thiefs) had the approval of Ubisoft.

So in closeing the point I was trying to make is nobobys stuff is safe on the wide open internet. And that is saddening.

I also want to thank you for the tools you have gave so genoursly to us at SubSim.

[FIREWALL]

As for SH4UBM I don't care for it and use the cd for a drink coaster.

BUT.... I admire and applaud all the hard work that the modders big and small have done for it.

[Sailor Steve]

I personally play SH4UBM regularly, with the latest OM and OMEGU. I treasure my disc and take very good care of it.

@ Karamazovnew: That short film is marvelous. I've many times praised the water in SH4, saying that it looks like model ships superimposed on real water; but that black-and-white sequence beginning at 4:11 looks like real wartime footage. Amazing!

I disagree with some of your summations, especially that GWX is harder than NYGM, but that's personal taste at its finest. I'm about to start playing with WAC, based solely on the screenshots I've seen posted.

To the subject: Yes, modders have taken both games to new heights (or should that be depths?), but they know and have freely admitted that without the developers making the games to mod they would be nowhere.

As for one mod "making SH3 what it should have been"? I've seen people say that before, and while I agree there has been great improvement, I disgree with that statement because there still could be so much more.

Here's to you, Dan, and to your team and to SH5!

And all that praise won't stop me from grumbling about anything I don't like. So there!