State Lawmakers Propose Mandatory DNA Samples

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Man, nice write up Mothball on the DNA. As for Skybird, were are these corporation going to get the DNA? There is no abuse if they do not have your DNA.

Yes, where are all those hackers getting their data, since they have not been given access to it? Mysterious. And non-authorized cross-office exchange of personal data - why does it exist if law does not allow it?

This is food for very hard thought.

Or sorry - but is it really? Haven't we had enough data scandals on the past 12 months already?

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I do not see it happing IMO. It would be overstepping the bounds of privacy. Sure it does exist as Skybird points out. I have not experienced any corporation looking to collect DNA. This would be called predetermination based on DNA.

Ah yes, it is illegal by law, that's why nobody will do it. Isn't this a happy and honest planet we live on.


Don't get me wrong, I absolutely see the ebenfit of datastoring DNY smaples for law enforcement, and in an ideal world I would not think a second on objecting to it. But this world is not honest, but bad. I also the see the risks - which you still seem to minimise although reality already has overtaken you.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Yes, where are all those hackers getting their data, since they have not been given access to it? Mysterious. And non-authorized cross-office exchange of personal data - why does it exist if law does not allow it?

This is food for very hard thought.

Or sorry - but is it really? Haven't we had enough data scandals on the past 12 months already?

Well, lets start with were and why your DNA got into a data base If it is not there then why worry?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Well, lets start with were and why your DNA got into a data base If it is not there then why worry?

For the same reason why fingerprints are kept in databases as well - to make them accessible for data processing - mass comparisons, for example.


Security interests and freedom onterests need to be balanced against each other, you just can't have both maxed out. The more the slider moves toeards security, the more control there is, and the less freedom, the more freedom the slider indicates, the less control and the less control you get. - That'S what all these anti-terror laws we got in the past 9 years - try to hide from public discussion. But total security means total control and total loss of freedom and private sphere.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Skybird

For the same reason why fingerprints are kept in databases as well - to make them accessible for data processing - mass comparisons, for example.


Security interests and freedom onterests need to be balanced against each other, you just can't have both maxed out. The more the slider moves toeards security, the more control there is, and the less freedom, the more freedom the slider indicates, the less control and the less control you get. - That'S what all these anti-terror laws we got in the past 9 years - try to hide from public discussion. But total security means total control and total loss of freedom and private sphere.

But you did not answer the question. How and where did your DNA get into the data base? I have not been anywhere were DNA was asked for. In law enforcement your DNA might end up in the data base as a result of a crime. Again, if your DNA is not in the data base why worry? I just do not see company X raiding my hair brush for a sample or getting taken to the ground only to find a cotton swab in my mouth for sample off my inner cheek.

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

But you did not answer the question. How and where did your DNA get into the data base? I have not been anywhere were DNA was asked for. In law enforcement your DNA might end up in the data base as a result of a crime. Again, if your DNA is not in the data base why worry? I just do not see company X raiding my hair brush for a sample or getting taken to the ground only to find a cotton swab in my mouth for sample off my inner cheek.

My DNA probably ended up in a German database roughly 15 years ago.

Had the German equivalent of the FBI/ State BI come to my house to collect samples and ask question about my whereabouts at a certain date and time to exclude me from a list of murder suspects.

Personally, I do not mind so much if DNA is collected by law enforcement. However, the notion that private companies could get access to those is pretty much laughable. If the privacy laws in Germany did not drastically change in the last five years, there is no way in hell any company can get access to those DB's except as a federal contractor.

[MothBalls]

Originally Posted by Thomen

Personally, I do not mind so much if DNA is collected by law enforcement. However, the notion that private companies could get access to those is pretty much laughable. If the privacy laws in Germany did not drastically change in the last five years, there is no way in hell any company can get access to those DB's except as a federal contractor.

You do understand that the data is reduced to a number. That's all that is needed. It isn't an actual tissue sample. It becomes nothing more than a data point, just like a fingerprint.

As far as access to it? I don't know if there is a German equivalent list, but here's one from the US: http://www.privacyrights.org/ar/Chro...reaches.htm#CP

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by MothBalls

You do understand that the data is reduced to a number. That's all that is needed. It isn't an actual tissue sample. It becomes nothing more than a data point, just like a fingerprint.

Indeed. I am aware of this.

As far as access to it? I don't know if there is a German equivalent list, but here's one from the US: http://www.privacyrights.org/ar/Chro...reaches.htm#CP

Damn.. I am not even sure I do want know if such a list exists.

It is rather scary that those pencil pusher who oversee all that stuff seem to have no clue about data security.
Friend of mine works as a Data Security Manager for a local federal agency here, and the kind of stories he tells are really scary when it comes to pencil pushers and scientiests.

[MothBalls]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Well, lets start with were and why your DNA got into a data base If it is not there then why worry?

Did you read the original article? The whole point of this discussion is the legislation they want to pass will let the police take samples without a warrant. This means they can just make you a suspect, collect the DNA and record it, nothing you can do about it. That's the part I object to.

I agree with Skybird as well. Once the data exists it is at risk of being stolen. It happens all the time. You can't tell me you don't see the stories about data comprimises. Add to that, the corporate risk. Eventually the corporations will use their influence to get the data legally. That scares me more than hackers do.

However, some are raising concerns about the proposal.

"Innocent people frequently are arrested, and so there's no more reason to have their DNA in the databank than yours and mine and anybody else's who's not committed any crime," said Keith Findley, co-director of the Wisconsin Innocence Project.

[AVGWarhawk]

Did you read the original article? The whole point of this discussion is the legislation they want to pass will let the police take samples without a warrant. This means they can just make you a suspect, collect the DNA and record it, nothing you can do about it. That's the part I object to.

This is were we part agreement. For starters, the police will not be entering your home for a sample nor will they call you in. We also have to consider probably cause. The there is illegal search and seizure. If your in the pokie you ended up there for a reason. Wrong spot at the wrong time only flys so far. I do not see this DNA issue going above law enforcement usage only...warranted or not.

[MothBalls]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

The there is illegal search and seizure.

Bingo! That's the whole point. I consider it to be illegal search and seizure to collect my DNA without a court order signed by a judge before I've been charged with a felony. The legislation they are trying to pass will give them that right, before any charge is filed, without a court order. It's a violation of the 4th amendment.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

This is were we part agreement. For starters, the police will not be entering your home for a sample nor will they call you in. We also have to consider probably cause. The there is illegal search and seizure. If your in the pokie you ended up there for a reason. Wrong spot at the wrong time only flys so far. I do not see this DNA issue going above law enforcement usage only...warranted or not.

then you also do not see illegal advetising per telephone, rpobbery of bank datbases, hacking of customer databases, theft of disks with copied data as a problem. All this is illegal. All this gets done nevertheless, numbers climbing. For the third time, we have had several mahor data security falures in Britian and Germany in the past 12 months. Tens of thousands of datasets, in one case I think even hundreds of thousands, got hacked, also sensible defence data.

I don't know what game you are playing here, but this demonstrative display of naivety doesn't suit you, AVG.

However.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Skybird

then you also do not see illegal advetising per telephone, rpobbery of bank datbases, hacking of customer databases, theft of disks with copied data as a problem. All this is illegal. All this gets done nevertheless, numbers climbing. For the third time, we have had several mahor data security falures in Britian and Germany in the past 12 months. Tens of thousands of datasets, in one case I think even hundreds of thousands, got hacked, also sensible defence data.

I don't know what game you are playing here, but this demonstrative display of naivety doesn't suit you, AVG.

However.

Well hey, this all happened in Britian and Germany. I do not much care what happens in these two countries. I do not see DNA as some sort of chart topper for corporations here in the states. The DNA in the data bases are from those with some type of criminal record. Really, what would a corporation want with Charles Mason's DNA? The only game here is you suspect you will be tackled to the ground for your DNA or your DNA will be sought after by corporations. Really, you have no reason to fear anything if you DNA is not in a data base. Even then, why worry? This worry on DNA is as bad as our discussion about looking after my daughters and being protective as I am.

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by Skybird

then you also do not see illegal advetising per telephone, rpobbery of bank datbases, hacking of customer databases, theft of disks with copied data as a problem. All this is illegal. All this gets done nevertheless, numbers climbing. For the third time, we have had several mahor data security falures in Britian and Germany in the past 12 months. Tens of thousands of datasets, in one case I think even hundreds of thousands, got hacked, also sensible defence data.

I don't know what game you are playing here, but this demonstrative display of naivety doesn't suit you, AVG.

However.

Plus, if you want legal action to be taken against such activities, you can call the police. But when police does something that isn't quite according to the law, who you gonna call - Ghostbusters?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Shearwater

Plus, if you want legal action to be taken against such activities, you can call the police. But when police does something that isn't quite according to the law, who you gonna call - Ghostbusters?

No man, the Ghostbusters have the machine that changes the molecular structure of your DNA. Not cool man.