SH5 Updates from the SUBSIM meeting next week

[V.C. Sniper]

if (convoy spotted)
{
convoyContact.sendInfo();
convoyContact.shadowConvoy(isConvoyInSight);

if (escortSpotBoat)
{
ALARM();
}
}

//lulz

Wolfpacks is still an undecided issue.

Well thats just crazy, i mean really really crazy. We already have SH3, i've no need to upgrade to SH5 if it has no wolfpacks....it will just be a graphical upgrade and I tried that with SH4..PANTS!

No Wolfpacks? Simply not interested!

[Gotmilk]

updates updates updates. Tell us every detail you remember from presentation.

[Onkel Neal]

It's too early to tell, but basically it looks like SH3/4 with better graphics, full interior access, a much more strategic dynamic campaign, and with realism options for causal players (ship health bars, better enemy visual/sonar/radar range tools, etc). I fully support adding elements that make the game playable for the arcade/action game crowd, damn right. Of course, as long as it is scalable, has realism options that allow guys like me to have a fully manual TDC, no contacts update map, etc. Wouldn't it be great to sell the game to 120,000 hard core subsim players and 300,000 "shoot em up" action players?

I think the strategic dynamic campaign elements will add the most gameplay. As designed, when you attack a supply convoy it will affect the land battles, the routes of future convoys, and the enemy's ASW response.

AI Wolfpacks are .... well, they don't know yet if they will be in the game, if they will be very minimal, like AOD. I hope they are able to include AI wolfpacks, I think it would be a big letdown not to have "shadow convoy" objectives, where you must stay in contact with a convoy, not get too close so you are driven under and you lose the convoy; not too far away that you lose the convoy in the night; not attack until the other U-boats are in position (breaking that order and you lose command). This would add a lot of gameplay to the SH series and I believe it must be included.

[karamazovnew]

Affecting land battles might be over the top. However, depending on the year and month, some convoys could be somehow linked to historical battles and deemed more important.

I've just finished a post about the recognition manual. In it I've noticed that the TDC had a Ship Length dial and so the captain might have had a way to calculate the ship's speed through the TDC. Think about it, with such a tool and a double split prism stadimeter... how long would it take you to find all the data you need (speed, range, aob)? If the AOB dial would be linked to the sub's compass, then in less than a minute you'd know everything about your target and maneuvering for a good shot would be child's play. It would be realistical, but also almost "shoot-em up". The two ways of playing can coexist very well in the same level of difficulty. My feeling is that difficulty should consist of other factors, like escort strength, ai sensors, ai adaptability, torpedo faults and so on. The attack itself might not pose enough of a challenge to differentiate between easy and hard. But the approach, the tactical part, would. That's what being a captain is all about, right?

[Hitman]

I've noticed that the TDC had a Ship Length dial and so the captain might have had a way to calculate the ship's speed through the TDC

If you are referring to the real life TDC (Not the in-game TDC) then that dial was used for calculating salvo spreads along the ship's hull. Not for calculating ship's speed, which was done directly by chronometer and fixed line, plotting or simple estimation based on ship wake size and seaman's eye

in less than a minute you'd know everything about your target and maneuvering for a good shot would be child's play. It would be realistical, but also almost "shoot-em up".

Well it was a shoot-em up in the early years! But it changed later, so no complaints from me here... the real challenge for U-Boat commanders in WW2 was not targetting, but getting close enough to shoot.

I think the strategic dynamic campaign elements will add the most gameplay. As designed, when you attack a supply convoy it will affect the land battles, the routes of future convoys, and the enemy's ASW response.

I'd much happily trade that for wolfpacks, but OK

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by Hitman

If you are referring to the real life TDC (Not the in-game TDC) then that dial was used for calculating salvo spreads along the ship's hull. Not for calculating ship's speed, which was done directly by chronometer and fixed line, plotting or simple estimation based on ship wake size and seaman's eye

Phew, I almost began to thing that the germans had it too easy On the other hand, I don't understand why they didn't develop such a feature Oh well, more to do for us... or the guy we put at the periscope

[IronOutlaw]

Sehr Geehrt Kameraden!

There is one important aspect of Wolfpacks that many seem to misunderstand. Individual U-boats within a Pack rarely, if ever, communicated with each other except when a boat transmitted a homing beacon upon sighting a convoy.

Ideally, each boat would be directed to a particular area in a Partol Line by B.d.U. in the hope that one of them would pick up the convoy that B.d.U. anticipated in the region usually from signals intelligence from B-Dienst. Once one boat sighted the convoy, it would transmit the beacon, until of course due to DF'ing, it became a serious hazard to do so.

Later in the war boats would pick up on a sighted convoy by monitoring the sighting report transmitted from the particular boat that sighted the convoy. Sometimes they were able to join in, sometimes not.

Each boat, when it also sighted the convoy would report the fact to B.d.U.. B.d.U. would then give permission to engage the convoy once a sufficient number of boats reported in.

It must be remembered that U-boat transmissions used the Enigma cipher system, something which was quite a laborious task, particularly if the message had to be double enciphered. Enigma machines are freely available on the net along with the protocols to use it if you want to try.

So, hopefully Ubisoft can insert AI boats forming a Wolfpack, of which the player's boat is one, since Ubisoft is already inserting the convoy and the radio transmissions to and from B.d.U. anyway.

Incidentally, the B.d.U. KTB is also available on line. If you want U-boat KTB's you need to go to Freiburg im Bresgau and photocopy them like I did.

Hope all that makes sense.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

AI Wolfpacks are .... well, they don't know yet if they will be in the game, if they will be very minimal, like AOD. I hope they are able to include AI wolfpacks, I think it would be a big letdown not to have "shadow convoy" objectives, where you must stay in contact with a convoy, not get too close so you are driven under and you lose the convoy; not too far away that you lose the convoy in the night; not attack until the other U-boats are in position (breaking that order and you lose command). This would add a lot of gameplay to the SH series and I believe it must be included.

I agree wholeheartedly. We've been screaming about Wolfpacks since SH3. If we got a fully modeled interior of the sub (which, while I'm sure looks pretty cool, adds absolutely nothing to gameplay) and no wolfpacks (which would add tremendously to gameplay)...I think that would be a huge oversight and a very severe case of misplaced priorities. SH4 made the mistake of placing eye candy over gameplay (heck, you can even take it a step further to say it made the mistake of placing eye candy over having a working game) and I'd hate to see the same mistake repeated with SH5.

It's so integral to the Battle of the Atlantic that not having wolfpacks in a U-boat game is like not having a Type VII submarine in the game.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I agree wholeheartedly. We've been screaming about Wolfpacks since SH3. If we got a fully modeled interior of the sub (which, while I'm sure looks pretty cool, adds absolutely nothing to gameplay) and no wolfpacks (which would add tremendously to gameplay)...I think that would be a huge oversight and a very severe case of misplaced priorities. SH4 made the mistake of placing eye candy over gameplay (heck, you can even take it a step further to say it made the mistake of placing eye candy over having a working game) and I'd hate to see the same mistake repeated with SH5.

It's so integral to the Battle of the Atlantic that not having wolfpacks in a U-boat game is like not having a Type VII submarine in the game.

Great post mookie

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I agree wholeheartedly. We've been screaming about Wolfpacks since SH3. If we got a fully modeled interior of the sub (which, while I'm sure looks pretty cool, adds absolutely nothing to gameplay) and no wolfpacks (which would add tremendously to gameplay)...I think that would be a huge oversight and a very severe case of misplaced priorities. SH4 made the mistake of placing eye candy over gameplay (heck, you can even take it a step further to say it made the mistake of placing eye candy over having a working game) and I'd hate to see the same mistake repeated with SH5.

It's so integral to the Battle of the Atlantic that not having wolfpacks in a U-boat game is like not having a Type VII submarine in the game.

SH6-The Wolfpacks! Just an oversight in SH5

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

SH6-The Wolfpacks! Just an oversight in SH5

You laugh, but I'd take it as an expansion pack.

[COLEY]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I agree wholeheartedly. We've been screaming about Wolfpacks since SH3. If we got a fully modeled interior of the sub (which, while I'm sure looks pretty cool, adds absolutely nothing to gameplay) and no wolfpacks (which would add tremendously to gameplay)...I think that would be a huge oversight and a very severe case of misplaced priorities. SH4 made the mistake of placing eye candy over gameplay (heck, you can even take it a step further to say it made the mistake of placing eye candy over having a working game) and I'd hate to see the same mistake repeated with SH5.

It's so integral to the Battle of the Atlantic that not having wolfpacks in a U-boat game is like not having a Type VII submarine in the game.

In the ideal world you'd have both (thinking about why can't we have both?), but i'd rather add to the gameplay than bother about the eye candy as well. SH3 wasn't an ugly game, and the chance to call in a wolfpack on an unsuspecting convoy would be lots and lots of fun as opposed to having wonderful sea textures etc etc. Regardless of what we end up with we're all still gonna pre order it and be engrossed in it when it comes out!

[denis_469]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

It's too early to tell, but basically it looks like SH3/4 with better graphics, full interior access, a much more strategic dynamic campaign, and with realism options for causal players (ship health bars, better enemy visual/sonar/radar range tools, etc). I fully support adding elements that make the game playable for the arcade/action game crowd, damn right. Of course, as long as it is scalable, has realism options that allow guys like me to have a fully manual TDC, no contacts update map, etc. Wouldn't it be great to sell the game to 120,000 hard core subsim players and 300,000 "shoot em up" action players?

I think the strategic dynamic campaign elements will add the most gameplay. As designed, when you attack a supply convoy it will affect the land battles, the routes of future convoys, and the enemy's ASW response.

AI Wolfpacks are .... well, they don't know yet if they will be in the game, if they will be very minimal, like AOD. I hope they are able to include AI wolfpacks, I think it would be a big letdown not to have "shadow convoy" objectives, where you must stay in contact with a convoy, not get too close so you are driven under and you lose the convoy; not too far away that you lose the convoy in the night; not attack until the other U-boats are in position (breaking that order and you lose command). This would add a lot of gameplay to the SH series and I believe it must be included.

Bad "no contacts update map" - it's mean, that in submarines not work radio DF. But it's work in real life. Programming himself war - not realism. As himself tarheting compaign target. Best AI ASW ships with attack you boats with data you pesonal eperience is excellent. It's would be very hard on 100% level. Very, very hard. And it's realistic. If from you victories woyld be future war is unreal total. No one submarine commander not can win war. It's alternative history. May be best, if war was as real?

[PL_Andrev]

What about ANSWERS for this topic?

"Questions for the SH5 dev team???"
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=155427