Map suggestion

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

thats the difference betweem "MAPS" and "CHARTS"

Maps are typically Mercator_projections however charts follow the earths curvature as illustrated above.

the flaw with SH3 and SH4 is that not only was the "earth" a Mercator projection of itself, but so were all of the maps in game.

this means that the distance from Brest france to New York is nearly TWICE the actual distance in real life.

by using "charts" and a spherical world... the distances in SH5 would be true to real life, as would all of the shore lines and continental sizes, expanses of the oceans etc.

and Greenland wouldnt be as big as all of asia (in reality its only a fraction of the size which it appears to be in game)

this is something which requires critical and immediate correction for any "Simulation" series which is to be taken seriously

I think a combination of both would be best. Make the game world spherical, but keep the 2D navigation maps as they are. How would you want to set an accurate course using an orthographic or winkel projection? You can't. The mercator projection at least shows a true compass course, which makes it IMO the only useable projection for small scale nav maps.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

I think a combination of both would be best. Make the game world spherical, but keep the 2D navigation maps as they are. How would you want to set an accurate course using an orthographic or winkel projection? You can't. The mercator projection at least shows a true compass course, which makes it IMO the only useable projection for small scale nav maps.

to the contrary, you would have to use a plotter, then correct for any magnetic variation of the magnetic field of the earth, then for any compass error of the boat.

its a basic mathmatic equation of (A plus or minus B, plus or minus C equals D)

[JU_88]

Well, what ever they have gone for now (flat or round) its gonna be far too late to change it.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Well, what ever they have gone for now (flat or round) its gonna be far too late to change it.

if thats the case i hope the boys over at the Grey Wolves Lair are cracking their knuckles and putting their heads together.

going to have to mod the fuel ranges right out of the box.

shame that

[ETR3(SS)]

I've spent my fair share of time BSing with the Quartermaster of the Watch and learned a thing or two about charts. This is definitely one of those things that needs to be in the game. Anything less would be uncivilized. Oh and while they're at it they should include buoys as well, and make everyone learn the Rules of the Road.

[Frederf]

Just have the course tool for the map connect the waypoints with a properly curved line and let the helmsman follow it?

[JScones]

A spherical world is more critical than wolfpacks IMHO...

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by JScones

A spherical world is more critical than wolfpacks IMHO...

True, but only if the entire navigation aspect of the game is done right. Things like a sextant, proper configurable base time, star maps and almanachs, real coastlines, real depths and hazards, water currents etc. Not REAL real but simulated real. We wouldn't want them remaking the entire atlantic based on the true thing ofc. If they hadn't planned on them from the start, we can already kiss them goodbye. Unless they allow us to mod them into the game. And by the way, they should also stick to using real charts, not just one big zoomable thing. It would help the sales a lot too, every man with salt water in his veins would buy it just to practice old-school sailing. And if they include realistic weather and wind, they could release a true sailing game with just a few modifications of the base game. I'd love to sail around in the USS Constitution

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

True, but only if the entire navigation aspect of the game is done right.

well...

hardcore navigation aside.

even if the navigation system is a bit dorked up...

your VIIC which is supposed to be able to cruise from France to New York and Back with plenty of reserve wont be mysteriously running out of fuel 1/3rd of the way into the return voyage

[Highbury]

Originally Posted by JScones

A spherical world is more critical than wolfpacks IMHO...

+1

Wolfpacks will only encompass a very small percentage of your game time if they are implemented in the game. Navigation will encompass every second you are at sea, wolfpacks or not. Getting it right this time is far more important, and certainly more important than having the cook ask me to try the soup!

[Pisces]

I'm afraid we are all barking up the wrong tree trying to convince Ubisoft putting in a spherical world. Ubisofft didn't make this game for hardcore players. It's targeted for (average) Joe Gamer, who doesn't even know how to plot targets manually. Plotting an intercept course is something he has yet to learn. Let alone how to deal with different map projections. Mostlikely he will ditch the game before he has to do that. I just hope they simulate this spherical world better, by rendering ships lower on the horizon, or reduce fuelconsumption (along longitude only) nearer to the poles. That's alot more simple and actually helps immersion. Eventhough the latter suggestion only solves the historical endurance issue. A trip around the polar circles still takes as long as along the equator. Propper point-to-point distances also requires a serious modification to the physics engine. No way they'll get that done including testing before Q1/Q2 2010. It will remain wishfull thinking.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Pisces

I'm afraid we are all barking up the wrong tree trying to convince Ubisoft putting in a spherical world. Ubisofft didn't make this game for hardcore players. It's targeted for (average) Joe Gamer, who doesn't even know how to plot targets manually. Plotting an intercept course is something he has yet to learn. Let alone how to deal with different map projections.

average joe settings can be implemented.

if a player wants point and shoot targeting and point and click navigation... there are and should be options for that.

If another player wants hard core navigation or targeting... there are options for that.

ubi has been wonderful about gameplay adaptability in the past.

what on earth do game options have to do with whether or not the "earth" in the game is round or flat?

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by Highbury

and certainly more important than having the cook ask me to try the soup!

"You don't know what you're missing."

[Frederf]

You don't have to modify the physics engine to have a spherical world, silly. The ocean in SH3 is only some 30km circle of flat water around the submarine. A merchant 100nm away isn't bobbing up and down in water and listing side to side, it's a few numbers for position, speed, course, and ship class.

In fact motion of ships in spherical coordinates is cake mathematically. The course has a N-S component and an E-W component. The ships can easily travel straight lines since they don't have to deal with chart projections at all.

The only, only slightly goofy or tricky part is rendering the paper nav map on the player's UI. I figure straight lines work ok for short ranges. After a cuttoff range the lines would have to curve according to the projection like for long course tool lines.

[IanC]

Originally Posted by JScones

A spherical world is more critical than wolfpacks IMHO...

Yikes, not for me! Shadowing a convoy while a wolfpack forms up, then getting the 'go' for attack, seeing the convoy getting hit by other U-boats, hearing other boats getting depth charged, intercepting distress calls etc... are (for me) more important than if point A to B is a straight or curved line. I'd rather a more realistic combat experience than a more realistic navigation experience.
Of course, we might have both...