CIA used mock executions etc.

NY Times story about the ongoing torture revelations.

August,

put me in ignore. Then I'd be a proud member of your ignore list.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by Aramike

My original statement could have referred to axiomatic reasonings only related to the CIA

It could, but it would be taking appeal to authority a bit far to claim that
the CIA are in an utterly unique position.

The bottom line is, though, in order for any of your simplistic arguments on formulaic logic to work, the issue said formulas represent must be equally as simple. This issue is not. It is rather exceedingly complex.

The issue of torture is certainly too complex, but the "if it didn't work it
wouldn't be used." argument is not.

Does the CIA using torture mean that torture works?

No, of course not. That statement taking by itself with no axiomatic, historical, documented context is indeed an invalid argument. But we're not aliens visiting planet Earth for the first time and rendering moral judgement without regard to context, are we? Rather, we are human beings with experiences to temper our understandings, and that is where the context must be laid.

So, let's see ... why would a trained CIA interrogator use torture...let's examine some motivations, shall we?

1 - Just for the hell of it.
2 - Under orders from people who have no idea that methods are ineffective.
3 - Methods are effective.
4 - Personal, vindictive motivations.
5 - All other methods have failed.

Now, using common sense, I'm going to eliminate 1, 2, and 4. Number 1 just doesn't make any sense and there are safeguards in place to prevent the odd individual who would engage in such sadistic activities. The same applies to #4.

As for #2, I see it as unlikely because the people in charge would have to be ridiculously moronic to continue a somewhat black program that has been ineffective for decades. In a bureaucracy of budgets, every dollar and minute is accounted for. Furthermore its a game of results that, for all of its shortcomings, the agency has been winning. You only hear about the successes - not the failures.

So, 2 doesn't seem to ring very true.

That leaves us with 3 and 5. I have no problem with either, so long as torture does not involve disfigurement and/or permanant physical disability, AND it is only applied in cases of learning specifics we KNOW the subject is privvy to (as opposed to just beating down a guy and saying "tell us what you know", which seems to be the only thing lefties think the CIA does using enhanced interrogation).

Again, that same argument could be applied to things in my list.

So, let's see ... why would a trained some highly skilled medical professionals use homeopathy...let's examine some motivations, shall we?

1 - Just for the hell of it.
2 - Under orders from people who have no idea that homeopathy is ineffective.
3 - Homeopathy is effective.
4 - Personal, vindictive motivations.
5 - All other methods have failed.

or

So, let's see ... why would a trained some highly skilled environmental scientists use are trying to prevent climate change...let's examine some motivations, shall we?

1 - Just for the hell of it.
2 - Under orders from people who have no idea that trying to prevent climate change is ineffective.
3 - trying to prevent climate change is effective.
4 - Personal, vindictive motivations.
5 - All other methods have failed.

Come to think of it, it can be turned back on torture:

So, let's see ... why would the witch finder general use torture to find witches...let's examine some motivations, shall we?

1 - Just for the hell of it.
2 - Under orders from people who have no idea that methods are ineffective.
3 - Methods are effective.
4 - Personal, vindictive motivations.
5 - All other methods have failed.

Now, using common sense, I'm going to eliminate 1, 2, and 4. Number 1 just doesn't make any sense and there are safeguards in place to prevent the odd individual who would engage in such sadistic activities. The same applies to #4.

As for #2, I see it as unlikely because the people in charge would have to be ridiculously moronic to continue a somewhat black program that has been ineffective for decades. [...etc]

In every case there is clearly more options to be considered.

For homeopathy the choice that appeals to me most goes something like:
6 - A mix of the placebo effect and confirmation bias makes homeopathy
appear to be effective

and for torture someone could use:
6 - Torture appears to work because the questions that are asked have to
be leading questions, the information it produces is rarely verifiable and
regardless of whether it is working to seek the truth, it will always work
to add to confirmation bias as torture victims will always eventually say
what they think the torturer wants to hear; true or not.


All that aside, I'm not sure that anyone who says the CIA is wrong has to
give a reason why they would make the mistake. The burden of proof isn't
on them to do so.

[August]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

NY Times story about the ongoing torture revelations.

August,

put me in ignore. Then I'd be a proud member of your ignore list.

I don't have an ignore list. That's not how I roll.

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

So who's in favor and who's against torture?

In favour of torture:
Aramike
CastleBravo
CaptainHaplo
Skybird
OneToughHering


Against torture:
Letum
Max2147


Those who feel they are misrepresented may ask to be changed into a different category.

Fixed for you.

I never said that torture is ok, you are, once again misinterpreting and misrepresenting things. In fact, it was you, who said that other countries procedures do not count, therefore, it is you (once again) who supports or ingnores torture in other countries, as long as you can blame the US.

Oh and just for kicks and giggles.. Since you are so adamant that Americans are fat or living here also makes you fat, you are aware that there are, percentage wise, more obese people in Finland than there are in the USA or most other European countries?

But I have to admit, reading your weird and twisted reasonings make an interesting read for rainy gloomy days of boredom and are a nice distraction from most of the other political threads that end in a partisan slug fest.

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by August

I don't have an ignore list.

Ditto.. otherwise one might miss a lot of the 'good stuff'.

Originally Posted by Thomen

Fixed for you.

I never said that torture is ok, you are, once again misinterpreting and misrepresenting things. In fact, it was you, who said that other countries procedures do not count, therefore, it is you (once again) who supports or ingnores torture in other countries, as long as you can blame the US.

Oh and just for kicks and giggles.. Since you are so adamant that Americans are fat or living here also makes you fat, you are aware that there are, percentage wise, more obese people in Finland than there are in the USA or most other European countries?

But I have to admit, reading your weird and twisted reasonings make an interesting read for rainy gloomy days of boredom and are a nice distraction from most of the other political threads that end in a partisan slug fest.

Nope. You are agreeing with the notion that it's ok for US to torture if other nations do it as well. I wonder if this logic includes or excludes the many South American nations where the US 'imported' torture through the School of Americas? The extraordinary renditions have also transported people to be tortured to places like Syria. Does this make it ok for US to use torture?

Nope, the US is the fattest nation in the world.

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Nope. You are agreeing with the notion that it's ok for US to torture if other nations do it as well. I wonder if this logic includes or excludes the many South American nations where the US 'imported' torture through the School of Americas?

Nope, the US is the fattest nation in the world.

Where did I say that I agree that it is ok, if other nations do it?

Once again, you make assumptions without any solid facts to back you up.

And nope, they aren't the fattest.. atleast the Finns are fatter, according to a study done by an institute in Finnland

Originally Posted by Thomen

Where did I say that I agree that it is ok, if other nations do it?

Once again, you make assumptions without any solid facts to back you up.

And nope, they aren't the fattest.. atleast the Finns are fatter, according to a study done by an institute in Finnland

Well why is torture ok then?

According to an American study the Americans are fattest. And according to a German study...oh, wait you're not German.

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Well why is torture ok then?

According to an American study the Americans are fattest. And according to a German study...oh, wait you're not German.

Once again, you are trying to deflect from the issue. Where did I say that torture is ok? Please point it out.

So, who are the obese people then? Once again you are being very selective in what you want to see or understand.

Originally Posted by Thomen

Once again, you are trying to deflect from the issue. Where did I say that torture is ok? Please point it out.

So, who are the obese people then? Once again you are being very selective in what you want to see or understand.

The subject of this thread is torture by the US. Stick to the topic.

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

The subject of this thread is torture by the US. Stick to the topic.

That is all you got?
I am on topic. Where did I say the stuff you accuse me off?

Originally Posted by Thomen

That is all you got?
I am on topic. Where did I say the stuff you accuse me off?

Well then clarify your point instead of endless dribble,

Edit. Well I'd consider flooding a thread with useless off-topic messages to be worse then 'fatty', but that's just me.

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Well then clarify your point instead of endless dribble, fatty.

Ahh.. so you got nothing left and now you are down to name calling? How apropo.

Being 6ft 2 and 180lbs makes me truly an obese person, I 'spose.

Can you point out the things you accuse me off, or not?

So you're not in favour of torture? Good. I'll make a change to the list.

In favour of torture:
Aramike
CastleBravo
CaptainHaplo
Skybird

Against torture:
OTH
Letum
Max2147
Thomen

All you had to was ask but I guess that was too difficult, eh?

Nope, the US is the fattest nation in the world.

What absolute drivel, there are several pacific nations who are proud of their record in being the fattest nations in the world.
But hey how about the latest EU report into Lard

In parts of Europe the combination of reported overweight and obesity in men exceeds even the 67% prevalence
found in the USA’s most recent measured survey. Finland, Germany, Greece, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Slovakia

and Malta all have overweight rates which surpass that of the USA.

Oh look its finland :rotfl:

Isn't it sad that in such a simple case as putting up a viable position against torture you are simply unable to make a coherent arguement Herring , instead you just go off on an "It's America" rant again.