The proposed health care bill thread (merged) - Page 29

08-10-09, 03:35 PM

Yet people continue to come to the US for the highest quality medical care.........

08-10-09, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Many folks come to this country for health care they cannot receive in their own countries.

Sorry to have to repeat myself. More americans go to out foriegn for health treatment than foriegners come to America .
If you want to hold up health tourism as an example of how good the system is then you need to make a comparrison.
A single hospital in thailand treats almost as many US citizens as health tourists each year as the of whole of the US gets in foriegners coming for health tourism.....not to mention the Indian market which last year got a 30% boost in numbers.

Quote:

Yet people continue to come to the US for the highest quality medical care.........

I don't know how to break it to ya , but the third world is overtaking you when it comes to both quality and cost.

08-10-09, 03:53 PM

Which is the truth?

"I think if we get a good public option, it would lead to single payer and that's the best way to reach single payer...I think the best way we're gonna get single payer, the only way, is to have a public option and demonstrate its strength and power." - Rep. Barney Frank (D - Massachusetts)

"What are not legitimate concerns are those being put forward claiming a public option is somehow a Trojan horse for a single-payer system...So, when you hear the naysayers claim that I'm trying to bring about government -run health care, know this - they are not telling the truth." - Prez. Barack Obama

FIREWALL · 08-10-09, 03:54 PM

They say Opposites Attract. That's a PantLoad.

Not when it comes to 2 very different opinions here.

Carotio · 08-10-09, 04:23 PM

I'm telling y'all:
This is a discussion neither of you can win. End of story.

Republicans vs. Democrates
or
Americans vs. Europeans (sorry to leave out Asians and Aussies)

The difference in opinions is too great to meet somewhere in the middle, it seems.
However, imagine if the health care project is made law and established.
You then have two scenarios:
It could actually work for the benifit of a lot of people, and a few would strongly disagree with it nevertheless.
It proves to be a failure, both financially and medically. The opponents can then have their saying: "what did I tell ya..." and get back in power and restore the old system.

But you would never know if you wouldn't try it. Public health care has been an insurance for many people in Europe for years, and though it has its faults, it actually feels good to know that you can get help because you have been paying to it through taxes over years. But of course, I'm also just a socialist European.....

08-10-09, 04:25 PM

The flip flop begins..........Mr. Obama knows he has trouble.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090810/...go_pr_wh/obama

A day before he faces a potentially boisterous town hall in New Hampshire, President Barack Obama praised the spirited debate over his health care plans and predicted "sensible and reasoned arguments" would ultimately prevail in Congress.

FIREWALL · 08-10-09, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

They say Opposites Attract. That's a PantLoad.

Not when it comes to 2 very different opinions here.

bump

GoldenRivet · 08-10-09, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carotio

You then have two scenarios:
It could actually work for the benifit of a lot of people, and a few would strongly disagree with it nevertheless.
It proves to be a failure, both financially and medically. The opponents can then have their saying: "what did I tell ya..." and get back in power and restore the old system.

I say again...

Medicare is broke

Social Security is broke

Medicaid is broke

What makes anyone think this disaster of a health plan is going to go anywhere?

im baffled as to how any single American could be for this.

08-10-09, 05:18 PM

I'm admitedly not the brightest fellow in the world, but I know when I'm getting scr@w*d. And I am by Obama/EU talk.

CaptainHaplo · 08-10-09, 05:53 PM

OK - I posted the link to the bill in another thread - so folks can - if they choose - stop throwing talking points and the words of this or that politician and instead deal with what the bill itself says.

Now - lets deal with a couple of issues here. First - the "uninsured". The uninsured are mostly the unemployed or part time employed only. Why do I say that? Because I don't know of a single full time job that doesn't offer at least BASIC health insurance. Even Mickey D's and BK offer health benefits for their full time employees. Fast food places people......

So, lets call this what it is. Its health care for the poorest segments of our society. Ok - but we already have that - its called Medicaid. If you are on welfare, or have an income below a certain amount, you qualify for Federally funded Medicaid. No medical bills at all. So those who are unemployed and part time employed only, do not make enough to be above the CURRENT guidelines for income eligibility. Thus, they should be on Medicaid if they want to have insurance. After all, thats what the program is for. Of course, like any other government run endeavor, its going broke....

Now, there is another segment of people that don't have health care.... the illegal immigrants. Notice they are not excluded from being covered by this great new social program. Why is that do you wonder? Couldn't be a move to further legitimize their status even though they violate the law by their illegal presence inside the country could it? It couldn't be that by legitimizing them, we thus pave the way for further pursuit, so that they can later express their gratitude by voting for those who gave them such benefits... could it? Of course not!

Then we have the elderly. Those old folks on a fixed income... who need this to cover their health care. Right? Well - there is that wonderfully run MEDICARE program that is supposed to do that, but its wallet is empty, and its done horribly at providing for the needs of our seniors.

Thus - we need a "ITS BIGGER - ITS BETTER" plan that will cover EVERYONE that needs it - and ultimately those that dont currently but will be forced by the wording of the bill to do so as time passes, as a way to further squeeze those in society that are actually productive and contributing.

Know why healthcare has become an impersonal business, where your herded in to see the doc, then herded out after your 5 or 10 minutes with them? Because they have a business to run - and they have to have people file insurance forms - dedicated staff just to get paid from the insurance companies. Then they have to make enough to pay those people, keep the office open with all its overhead, and then - the biggest hit - pay their own malpractice insurance. They have to see 5 people an hour to break even pretty much.

Health care will become affordable when three things happen...

#1 Tort reform occurs that makes a doctor or hospital able to afford insurance without having to make his or her business an "assembly line" of patients.

#2 Health care providers have ways of collecting fair recompense for the care they provide, be it from insurance, the patient, or both. Chronic failure to pay means that care can be refused - with the ONLY exception being life threatening situations. Yes - if you have insurance that pays 80 percent and you continually refuse or make no effort to pay the outstanding balance, then break your arm, you should pay up before you get fixed up. If your so poor that you can't pay at all - you would be on Medicaid and not have a bill to start with.

#3 Emergency rooms and ambulatory services have the ability to refuse to treat patients who do not have medical emergencies. There are many reasons to do this. For one, non emergencies create additional waits for emergency cases, thus endangering lives and increasing overall costs. Add in that many use the emergency room as the only doctor they ever see, often not paying afterwards, and you could greatly reduce cost by returning the emergency room to its original purpose.

Kptlt. Neuerburg · 08-10-09, 06:16 PM

I agree with Carotio, there are two side to every story and each person thinks it right, resulting in a never ending argument. I support the idea of national heath care, and to those who belive the lie that health care is fine the way it is just wait until you get shafted by the insurance industry only then will your opinion change. Oh and if you do get shafted by the industry don't come here and complane about what happened because it is your own fault for being to stupid to listen to reason.

FIREWALL · 08-10-09, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg

I agree with Carotio, there are two side to every story and each person thinks it right, resulting in a never ending argument. I support the idea of national heath care, and to those who belive the lie that health care is fine the way it is just wait until you get shafted by the insurance industry only then will your opinion change. Oh and if you do get shafted by the industry don't come here and complane about what happened because it is your own fault for being to stupid to listen to reason.

Another what "IF" post. Why is it we're all to " stupid to listen to reason " because we won't all fall down and agree with you.

Come back and post when you can come up with an Orignal Thought of your own.

CaptainHaplo · 08-10-09, 08:33 PM

My issue with folks like the poster above (Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg) is for them its an "either/or" solution - either you take this plan - with no discussion of what it really is - OR your some right wing bigot nazi nutcase because private industry will screw you (as if the federal government wont?????).

Instead of dealing with the issue - debating its merits and its flaws - its take it and don't complain. Thats not discourse - thats ramrodding - and its what the American people are not willing to accept. That fact is what is making the extreme left that is pushing this call any who disagree anything they can to disparage them.

FIREWALL · 08-10-09, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

My issue with folks like the poster above (Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg) is for them its an "either/or" solution - either you take this plan - with no discussion of what it really is - OR your some right wing bigot nazi nutcase because private industry will screw you (as if the federal government wont?????).

Instead of dealing with the issue - debating its merits and its flaws - its take it and don't complain. Thats not discourse - thats ramrodding - and its what the American people are not willing to accept. That fact is what is making the extreme left that is pushing this call any who disagree anything they can to disparage them.

All they want to do for the most part is Puke and Run.

August · 08-10-09, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carotio

..and get back in power and restore the old system.

Unfortunately socialism, once it becomes entrenched, is extraordinarily difficult to get rid of.

08-10-09, 03:54 PM	#424
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	They say Opposites Attract. That's a PantLoad. Not when it comes to 2 very different opinions here. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

08-10-09, 04:23 PM	#425
Carotio Mr. Bad Wolf Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Aabenraa, Denmark Posts: 1,488 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	I'm telling y'all: This is a discussion neither of you can win. End of story. Republicans vs. Democrates or Americans vs. Europeans (sorry to leave out Asians and Aussies) The difference in opinions is too great to meet somewhere in the middle, it seems. However, imagine if the health care project is made law and established. You then have two scenarios: It could actually work for the benifit of a lot of people, and a few would strongly disagree with it nevertheless. It proves to be a failure, both financially and medically. The opponents can then have their saying: "what did I tell ya..." and get back in power and restore the old system. But you would never know if you wouldn't try it. Public health care has been an insurance for many people in Europe for years, and though it has its faults, it actually feels good to know that you can get help because you have been paying to it through taxes over years. But of course, I'm also just a socialist European..... __________________ Download my mods from SHMF Follow my photography here taler dansk, speak English, spreche Deutsch, parle français, forstår svenska/norsk, comprendo castellano

08-10-09, 05:53 PM	#430
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,405 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	OK - I posted the link to the bill in another thread - so folks can - if they choose - stop throwing talking points and the words of this or that politician and instead deal with what the bill itself says. Now - lets deal with a couple of issues here. First - the "uninsured". The uninsured are mostly the unemployed or part time employed only. Why do I say that? Because I don't know of a single full time job that doesn't offer at least BASIC health insurance. Even Mickey D's and BK offer health benefits for their full time employees. Fast food places people...... So, lets call this what it is. Its health care for the poorest segments of our society. Ok - but we already have that - its called Medicaid. If you are on welfare, or have an income below a certain amount, you qualify for Federally funded Medicaid. No medical bills at all. So those who are unemployed and part time employed only, do not make enough to be above the CURRENT guidelines for income eligibility. Thus, they should be on Medicaid if they want to have insurance. After all, thats what the program is for. Of course, like any other government run endeavor, its going broke.... Now, there is another segment of people that don't have health care.... the illegal immigrants. Notice they are not excluded from being covered by this great new social program. Why is that do you wonder? Couldn't be a move to further legitimize their status even though they violate the law by their illegal presence inside the country could it? It couldn't be that by legitimizing them, we thus pave the way for further pursuit, so that they can later express their gratitude by voting for those who gave them such benefits... could it? Of course not! Then we have the elderly. Those old folks on a fixed income... who need this to cover their health care. Right? Well - there is that wonderfully run MEDICARE program that is supposed to do that, but its wallet is empty, and its done horribly at providing for the needs of our seniors. Thus - we need a "ITS BIGGER - ITS BETTER" plan that will cover EVERYONE that needs it - and ultimately those that dont currently but will be forced by the wording of the bill to do so as time passes, as a way to further squeeze those in society that are actually productive and contributing. Know why healthcare has become an impersonal business, where your herded in to see the doc, then herded out after your 5 or 10 minutes with them? Because they have a business to run - and they have to have people file insurance forms - dedicated staff just to get paid from the insurance companies. Then they have to make enough to pay those people, keep the office open with all its overhead, and then - the biggest hit - pay their own malpractice insurance. They have to see 5 people an hour to break even pretty much. Health care will become affordable when three things happen... #1 Tort reform occurs that makes a doctor or hospital able to afford insurance without having to make his or her business an "assembly line" of patients. #2 Health care providers have ways of collecting fair recompense for the care they provide, be it from insurance, the patient, or both. Chronic failure to pay means that care can be refused - with the ONLY exception being life threatening situations. Yes - if you have insurance that pays 80 percent and you continually refuse or make no effort to pay the outstanding balance, then break your arm, you should pay up before you get fixed up. If your so poor that you can't pay at all - you would be on Medicaid and not have a bill to start with. #3 Emergency rooms and ambulatory services have the ability to refuse to treat patients who do not have medical emergencies. There are many reasons to do this. For one, non emergencies create additional waits for emergency cases, thus endangering lives and increasing overall costs. Add in that many use the emergency room as the only doctor they ever see, often not paying afterwards, and you could greatly reduce cost by returning the emergency room to its original purpose. __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

08-10-09, 06:16 PM	#431
Kptlt. Neuerburg Admiral Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 2,282 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	I agree with Carotio, there are two side to every story and each person thinks it right, resulting in a never ending argument. I support the idea of national heath care, and to those who belive the lie that health care is fine the way it is just wait until you get shafted by the insurance industry only then will your opinion change. Oh and if you do get shafted by the industry don't come here and complane about what happened because it is your own fault for being to stupid to listen to reason. __________________ "When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat." - George Carlin

08-10-09, 08:33 PM	#433
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,405 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	My issue with folks like the poster above (Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg) is for them its an "either/or" solution - either you take this plan - with no discussion of what it really is - OR your some right wing bigot nazi nutcase because private industry will screw you (as if the federal government wont?????). Instead of dealing with the issue - debating its merits and its flaws - its take it and don't complain. Thats not discourse - thats ramrodding - and its what the American people are not willing to accept. That fact is what is making the extreme left that is pushing this call any who disagree anything they can to disparage them. __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

08-10-09, 03:35 PM	#421
CastleBravo Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Yet people continue to come to the US for the highest quality medical care.........

08-10-09, 03:53 PM	#423
CastleBravo Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Which is the truth? "I think if we get a good public option, it would lead to single payer and that's the best way to reach single payer...I think the best way we're gonna get single payer, the only way, is to have a public option and demonstrate its strength and power." - Rep. Barney Frank (D - Massachusetts) "What are not legitimate concerns are those being put forward claiming a public option is somehow a Trojan horse for a single-payer system...So, when you hear the naysayers claim that I'm trying to bring about government -run health care, know this - they are not telling the truth." - Prez. Barack Obama

08-10-09, 04:25 PM	#426
CastleBravo Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	The flip flop begins..........Mr. Obama knows he has trouble. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090810/...go_pr_wh/obama A day before he faces a potentially boisterous town hall in New Hampshire, President Barack Obama praised the spirited debate over his health care plans and predicted "sensible and reasoned arguments" would ultimately prevail in Congress.

08-10-09, 05:18 PM	#429
CastleBravo Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I'm admitedly not the brightest fellow in the world, but I know when I'm getting scr@w*d. And I am by Obama/EU talk.