The proposed health care bill thread (merged)

[TDK1044]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Neither should people having to die because a Wall Street investor demands year over year EPS growth.

They'll certainly start dying once health care rationing is imposed by the Government. And a rationing of healthcare is a certainty if the Obama plan reaches fruition.

Once you eliminate private health insurance, which is Obama's ultimate goal, then you can't possibly service the needs of all the sick people all of the time, and so you start to set criteria boundries. They would start to deny certain procedures and treatments based on age or pre existing conditions.

When my father needed heart bypass surgery in the UK about 15 years ago, the wait time for his surgery using the British National Health Service was 1 year. He'd have been dead in 3 months had my sister and I not paid for the surgery ourselves and got him the operation he needed in under two weeks.

Under the Obama plan, my sister and I would not have been allowed to use our own money to save our father's life. After all, that's cheating right? Why should we be allowed to spend thousands of Dollars we worked very hard to save so that we could choose to save the life of our father?

Obama is an honorable man and he means well, but if he can't run 'cash for clunkers' without turning it into a cluster f**k, then his naive healthcare plan will be literally breath taking!

[Tchocky]

Under the Obama plan, my sister and I would not have been allowed to use our own money to save our father's life. After all, that's cheating right? Why should we be allowed to spend thousands of Dollars we worked very hard to save so that we could choose to save the life of our father?

[citation needed]

EDIT - Have you any sources for this, TDK?

[AVGWarhawk]

Obama is an honorable man and he means well, but if he can't run 'cash for clunkers' without turning it into a cluster f**k, then his naive healthcare plan will be literally breath taking!

Dead on TDK! Just look at Medicade..it is in shambles.

[AVGWarhawk]

Truly, Bush was a disgrace in many things but Walter Reed takes the cake:

Recovering soldiers face bureaucratic delays, overworked case managers and appalling living conditions, including black mold, cheap mattresses and cockroaches.

This is a government run hospital for veterans. This is how the government handles veteran healthcare and recovery. Do you think the common citizen will see anything better? Doubtful at best.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-r...e_b_41693.html

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Potter has some hard evidence of this? I would suspect if this was found to be true said insurance company that was practicing this would be in a crap load of trouble. No? There is so much more than just insurance companies involved when it comes to the high cost of healthcare. There is malpractice insurance that do to people looking to retire early on tort cases involving doctors or a hospital. We have to remember, some of this is brought on by the patient and not just the hospitals/drug companies. All can not be pinned on Wall Street. The ENTIRE system needs an overhaul to be honest Mookie. Wall Street is just part of that overhaul.

Tort reform has already happened in California and Texas. Back in 06 Texas capped malpractice claims at $250k against doctors and it has done nothing to stem the tide of rising healthcare costs. It's like you're throwing a cup of water on a house fire.

And it CAN all be pinned on he fact that these are FOR PROFIT companies acting to maximize their bottom lines.

Originally Posted by TDK1044

They'll certainly start dying once health care rationing is imposed by the Government. And a rationing of healthcare is a certainty if the Obama plan reaches fruition.

We already ration healthcare according to ability to pay.

Milton Friedman’s beloved line is a good way to frame the issue: There is no such thing as a free lunch. The choice isn’t between rationing and not rationing. It’s between rationing well and rationing badly. Given that the United States devotes far more of its economy to health care than other rich countries, and gets worse results by many measures, it’s hard to argue that we are now rationing very rationally.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/bu...leonhardt.html

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

We already ration healthcare according to ability to pay.

+ Transportation, housing and food all come under the same heading.

I grew up in a world where the rich were rich and the poor were poor ...

Now someone wants us all to be equal ... not right away of course, but if they pass this health care bill it can only lead to more of the government being involved in your everyday life from the time you are born till the day you die.

[AVGWarhawk]

Tort reform has already happened in California and Texas. Back in 06 Texas capped malpractice claims at $250k against doctors and it has done nothing to stem the tide of rising healthcare costs. It's like you're throwing a cup of water on a house fire.

Mookie...that is only two states sir! Hardly a dent in this issue. Every state needs it!

[Steel_Tomb]

How the heck do you guys think that certain people shouldn't be allowed to get care when they need it? To simply give health care to people who are wealthy is wrong... people who are poor and unable to buy insurance are just as deserving of care when they're sick or injured as anyone else weather it be joe blogs or the president himself. Your all people, but you think that some people aren't worth the effort from what I read here.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Steel_Tomb

How the heck do you guys think that certain people shouldn't be allowed to get care when they need it? To simply give health care to people who are wealthy is wrong... people who are poor and unable to buy insurance are just as deserving of care when they're sick or injured as anyone else weather it be joe blogs or the president himself. Your all people, but you think that some people aren't worth the effort from what I read here.

The health care industry at least in the united states curently turns no one away regardless of wether or not they can pay. In fact it is one of the factors leading to the astronomical costs.

There are some cases where 'poor' patients are deferred to 'other' health care facilitys but I dont want to get into the first ladys closet and they still recieved at least some help.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Steel_Tomb

How the heck do you guys think that certain people shouldn't be allowed to get care when they need it? To simply give health care to people who are wealthy is wrong... people who are poor and unable to buy insurance are just as deserving of care when they're sick or injured as anyone else weather it be joe blogs or the president himself. Your all people, but you think that some people aren't worth the effort from what I read here.

No one here believes certain people should not be allowed to get health care. That is nonsense. However, some people choose not to have it. Some employers offer it but the employee gets less pay or they pay the employee more but the employee has to go get his own insurance. I have never worked for a company that did not offer healthcare benefits nor will I. If someone takes a job without benefits that is their choice. If they decide to have more take home pay instead of benefits that is their choice. If they sit on the couch and decide not to work and have no benefits...why should I have to pay for this person benefits?

[TDK1044]

Ironically, I think this is as much a legal issue as it is a medical one.

If you ask the simple question "why is private healthcare so expensive in this Country?" I think there are two main reasons. The first is because of the massive amount of malpractice insurance that Doctors have to pay to cover themselves against nonsense lawsuits. If you have to earn $150,000 a year just to pay your malpractice insurance, then it's little wonder we are where we are.

The second is that insurance by definition is supposed to cover a person against unforseen events that may occur unexpectedly in their life. But that's not how people have been sold on it or how they use it. People see insurance as a payment plan to cover events that are forseen.

If a couple is going to have a baby for example, they will take out medical insurance....not so much in case of a problem during delivery, but to help them pay for all of the hospital visits, tests etc that happen during the 9 months prior to the birth. These are not unforseen events. These events are part of having a baby and should not be covered by insurance. If you can't afford them then don't have one.

If we used insurance the way it was designed to be used, and if we protected Doctors against nonsense lawsuits by setting a cap in most non life threatening or life altering cases, guess what would happen to the cost of your insurance folks? It would drop faster that Dolly Parton's boobs.

[August]

Originally Posted by TDK1044

These events are part of having a baby and should not be covered by insurance. If you can't afford them then don't have one.

FYI you're talking upwards of $20k assuming everything goes well. Hundreds of thousands more if it doesn't. That's a lot of scratch for most people.

[Tchocky]

Well that's just your hard luck, I imagine.

I like the system whereby I've already paid my part through taxes, and no matter what happens during the pregnancy/birth, I'll be able to find care without bankrupting myself. I'd like to live somewhere like that, too. Alas...

[AVGWarhawk]

I like the system whereby I've already paid my part through taxes, and no matter what happens during the pregnancy/birth, I'll be able to find care without bankrupting myself. I'd like to live somewhere like that, too. Alas...

Sounds like Utopia. Unfortune that Utopia does not exist.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by August

FYI you're talking upwards of $20k assuming everything goes well. Hundreds of thousands more if it doesn't. That's a lot of scratch for most people.

Concerning care for those without insurance...they get the care but those that pay for private health insurance pay for that 'free' care in the premiums. The Johns Hopkins NICU had several babies from mothers on crack who obviously were not insured. The babies got the same care.