Real Pirates - Have we not learned anything from history? - Page 2

Dowly · 06-27-09, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

It spawned a cracking film though

Yes it did, my favorite.

Jimbuna · 06-27-09, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

Yes it did, my favorite.

Even my wife enjoyed it

Not sure if she understood it though

Dowly · 06-27-09, 04:10 PM

Dont know if you've visited this site, but it has lots of real radio traffic, videos and interviews of those who were there:
http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/

Jimbuna · 06-27-09, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

Dont know if you've visited this site, but it has lots of real radio traffic, videos and interviews of those who were there:
http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/

No I haven't...cheers mate

06-27-09, 07:01 PM

I've read the book and seen the film. I think the Bowden book is good, certainly better then the film in that it offers a view from the 'other side', that is from the Somalis point of view. And has less factual errors, the film takes quite a few artistic liberties.

Here's a documentary on google video that tells about the events.

SUBMAN1 · 06-27-09, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

That is a complex problem for a company if you dont pay the ransom your employees will get killed and that will make your other employess less likely to want to keep working for you.A nation can say we dont negotiate but for a company this is not such a good option as most nations are implying that they will use military force something a company does not have.

In the end it is the job of the worlds navies/coast guards to enforce national/international laws of the seas(which pirates violate) but it can be hard as pirates can simply can change their area of operations. I think the Somali pirates where ruuning in a smaller area then navies began to patrol that area so they adapated and started going farther out away from where the navies where patroling.It must be hard as you must find stop and inspect every single boat or ship you find you cant assume any one vessel is good or bad.

The pirates do what they do because to them that is the best way to get fast cash for low cost themselves these guys live in a war torn country they dont really have much to live for so they dont mind if a few of them get dropped by Navy SEALs.And a merchant ship carrying a few small arms might not be doin itself any good seeing as the Somali pirates can get RPGs and that guy above has a PKM you have get 10 or so guys coming at you with this kind of fire power and you only have a few weapons it wont stop much and then they will simply start attacking with more men and more guns.

Its not complex at all. Shoot back and the pirates will go pick on an unarmed vessel somewhere else that follows your suggestion and falls prey to them.

It is also impossible for the Navies of the world to be every place at the same time, so you suggest an impossibility. Its already shown that it is impossible to patrol the coast of a single country and deal with the threat in suxh a local area. There is too much sq/mi to cover for the entire US Navy. You'd need an aircraft carrier battle group on station 24/7 and then you still couldn't do it.

Maybe you should read some history?

Just to let you get an idea what you are dealing with - They are pirates. They are murderers. They are thieves. They are kidnappers. They are blackmailers. They are ransomers. They are the pure evil of the world. Need I go on?

And you would prevent such people from coming under harm by their intended victims? You would protect them?

You know, this very thought that people should not protect themselves tells me where this world it going. And let me tell you, it will not be a nice place when you get there.

-S

Stealhead · 06-28-09, 01:37 AM

I think you are missing what I am saying as you in effect are saying the same thing I am. And it is not just the US Navy that patrol these areas there several allied Navies patrolling these areas. But there is no way you can be everwhere this is what :It must be hard as you must find stop and inspect every single boat or ship you find you cant assume any one vessel is good or bad. is basicly saying.And where in the hell you get that I some how support not harming the pirates is beyond me.You fail to see that many companies do not allow weapons such as fire arms on thier ships and one very good reason for this is in some waters it is illegal for a none Naval/Law enforcement vessel to carry fire arms so then if they do what you say they violate law and if caught the sailors will be punished.

Your "soultion" is very poor what of the poor fishermen who have not the money to buy firearms they deserve to become victims?I guess they must give thier slives or livelyhoods away to the pirates. Or do you only care when it is an American or western merchant ship? If the fact that Navy Seals killed the ones that tried to raid the Alabama Mersk and still other pirates attack in more violent and agressive a manner that should emply that the only real good shooting at them will result in is them still attacking you.And there is no way anyone is going to allow merchant ships to have any naval style firepower.

And I was not saying that you cant arm yourself I am saying you can but either the pirates will go away and find someone who has no weapons or they come back learning thier lesson and come back with even more men and fire power so that only a Naval vessel would be able to fend off an attack.Now something that is very effective an LRAD put a few of those on a larger ship and that is a pretty effective tool.

You are saying it is not complex and you say simply shoot back but then you say they will attack someone defenceless and that an CV would not fully be able to cover the area which I think most people already understand.that sounds like a complex problem to me if it is not easy to stop the pirates completly. Maybe you should not tell me to read history I was in the military and I know myself how hard it can be even on land for a military force to control something.

I do agree with They are pirates. They are murderers. They are thieves. They are kidnappers. They are blackmailers. They are ransomers.

All but blackmailers what are they going to blackmail? That you tried to kiss one of them or that you cheated on your wife?

On second thought I dont even what to know your answer to that.

You are completely over re-acting in that last senetance and sounding borderline paranoid I am right here on planet earth and I am not going anywhere most of all not anywhere you think the world is going you are on that ride alone.

To me if you are on a ship with only few guns and they have machineguns and RPGs they will simply keep coming and then kill they guy who was shooting at them aginst a pirate that can have any small arm up to RPG level and be attacking in numbers unless you are a naval vessel you may not stop them.Also there are people far worse in this world than pirates which are pretty bad but they are not the worst thing. Pirates have been around since the dawn or maritime commerce and they have never stopped doing what they so that IS a very complex problem and I dont want to scare you but they are also in Central and South America and the Caribbean(call the Coast Guard if you dont belive me).

Maybe you should ask what I mean to say next time before attacking my post. Or not.I dont even have to respond to you if you keep going with the illogical attacking posts so if you keep doing that I will simply ignore you.Just to give you a heads up not to waste your time.

Take it easy I know I do and I quite enjoy my life.

ETR3(SS) · 06-28-09, 07:52 PM

I'm gonna start with something we all know. We all know where the pirates generally lurk. So knowing that we get into a risk vs. reward mindset with these shipping companies. The following assumes a course coming out of the Red Sea after a transit through the Suez Canal.

The risk being, if I send my ships along the Somali coast it stands a chance of being hijacked and held for ransom by pirates. If I don't pay the ransom the crew I hired to man the ship may die. Then how do I get the cargo to its destination port? If I have to pay the ransom my company loses X million dollars/pounds/euros. And if it's a perishable cargo I take the loss for that cargo.

The reward. If I send my ships along the Somali coast I can save valuable time and money versus sending them around the Cape. Quicker delivery of cargo means my ships can take on another cargo much sooner and therefor make the company more money faster.

Now with that arguement we can see a total lack of common sense and personal distance from the situation at hand. What I mean by that is is somebody in an office in London or Baltimore or Singapore is looking at the financial aspect of the voyage versus employee safety. The person in the office does not have to navigate off the Horn of Somalia and run the risk of possibly being killed over a ransom. If the bean counters of the world got into one of the situations that they send people into "because it's cheaper for the company" I bet there decision making would change slightly. You don't need a gun or company of Marines to hold a ship. There are non-lethal means of defending a ship and they have been proven during a pirate attack.

During the pirate heydays of old they were treated like the worst villains on the face of the earth and were killed for their crimes. Today it seems we just grab a bag of popcorn and watch the show.

TheSatyr · 06-30-09, 05:27 AM

Maritime Law says you can't arm merchant ships. Besides,I think it invalidates your ship's insurance if you break maritime laws.

SUBMAN1 · 07-01-09, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead

...Your "soultion" is very poor what of the poor fishermen who have not the money to buy firearms they deserve to become victims?I guess they must give thier slives or livelyhoods away to the pirates. Or do you only care when it is an American or western merchant ship? If the fact that Navy Seals killed the ones that tried to raid the Alabama Mersk and still other pirates attack in more violent and agressive a manner that should emply that the only real good shooting at them will result in is them still attacking you.And there is no way anyone is going to allow merchant ships to have any naval style firepower....

Yawn. No fisherman is not going to be a victim. You don't get what is happening over there. They go after juicy cargo.

Yes, and shooting back is the only way to stop or slow them.

-S

SUBMAN1 · 07-01-09, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSatyr

Maritime Law says you can't arm merchant ships. Besides,I think it invalidates your ship's insurance if you break maritime laws.

Precisely why people want it changed.

-S

Stealhead · 07-01-09, 03:52 PM

Yes I forgot you can read the minds of pirates so you know eveything that they do. Why are you wasting your time posting here at SubSim go out and take action man if this is so vital to to "shoot back" now you can look at your own theard http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=153296

Time to step up to the plate.Actions speak louder than words lets see you go on that criuse.
And it has been known that pirates will often force poor local fishemen and other sea fairers to help them or die, like hey give us your fish or recive an AK round to dome.
And now the fisherman could say no sir Mr.Pirate SUBMAN is coming and he will help me because he is a man of action.

06-28-09, 01:37 AM	#22
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I think you are missing what I am saying as you in effect are saying the same thing I am. And it is not just the US Navy that patrol these areas there several allied Navies patrolling these areas. But there is no way you can be everwhere this is what :It must be hard as you must find stop and inspect every single boat or ship you find you cant assume any one vessel is good or bad. is basicly saying.And where in the hell you get that I some how support not harming the pirates is beyond me.You fail to see that many companies do not allow weapons such as fire arms on thier ships and one very good reason for this is in some waters it is illegal for a none Naval/Law enforcement vessel to carry fire arms so then if they do what you say they violate law and if caught the sailors will be punished. Your "soultion" is very poor what of the poor fishermen who have not the money to buy firearms they deserve to become victims?I guess they must give thier slives or livelyhoods away to the pirates. Or do you only care when it is an American or western merchant ship? If the fact that Navy Seals killed the ones that tried to raid the Alabama Mersk and still other pirates attack in more violent and agressive a manner that should emply that the only real good shooting at them will result in is them still attacking you.And there is no way anyone is going to allow merchant ships to have any naval style firepower. And I was not saying that you cant arm yourself I am saying you can but either the pirates will go away and find someone who has no weapons or they come back learning thier lesson and come back with even more men and fire power so that only a Naval vessel would be able to fend off an attack.Now something that is very effective an LRAD put a few of those on a larger ship and that is a pretty effective tool. You are saying it is not complex and you say simply shoot back but then you say they will attack someone defenceless and that an CV would not fully be able to cover the area which I think most people already understand.that sounds like a complex problem to me if it is not easy to stop the pirates completly. Maybe you should not tell me to read history I was in the military and I know myself how hard it can be even on land for a military force to control something. I do agree with They are pirates. They are murderers. They are thieves. They are kidnappers. They are blackmailers. They are ransomers. All but blackmailers what are they going to blackmail? That you tried to kiss one of them or that you cheated on your wife? On second thought I dont even what to know your answer to that. You are completely over re-acting in that last senetance and sounding borderline paranoid I am right here on planet earth and I am not going anywhere most of all not anywhere you think the world is going you are on that ride alone. To me if you are on a ship with only few guns and they have machineguns and RPGs they will simply keep coming and then kill they guy who was shooting at them aginst a pirate that can have any small arm up to RPG level and be attacking in numbers unless you are a naval vessel you may not stop them.Also there are people far worse in this world than pirates which are pretty bad but they are not the worst thing. Pirates have been around since the dawn or maritime commerce and they have never stopped doing what they so that IS a very complex problem and I dont want to scare you but they are also in Central and South America and the Caribbean(call the Coast Guard if you dont belive me). Maybe you should ask what I mean to say next time before attacking my post. Or not.I dont even have to respond to you if you keep going with the illogical attacking posts so if you keep doing that I will simply ignore you.Just to give you a heads up not to waste your time. Take it easy I know I do and I quite enjoy my life. Last edited by Stealhead; 06-28-09 at 02:27 AM.

06-28-09, 07:52 PM	#23
ETR3(SS) Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Between test depth and periscope depth Posts: 3,021 Downloads: 175 Uploads: 16	I'm gonna start with something we all know. We all know where the pirates generally lurk. So knowing that we get into a risk vs. reward mindset with these shipping companies. The following assumes a course coming out of the Red Sea after a transit through the Suez Canal. The risk being, if I send my ships along the Somali coast it stands a chance of being hijacked and held for ransom by pirates. If I don't pay the ransom the crew I hired to man the ship may die. Then how do I get the cargo to its destination port? If I have to pay the ransom my company loses X million dollars/pounds/euros. And if it's a perishable cargo I take the loss for that cargo. The reward. If I send my ships along the Somali coast I can save valuable time and money versus sending them around the Cape. Quicker delivery of cargo means my ships can take on another cargo much sooner and therefor make the company more money faster. Now with that arguement we can see a total lack of common sense and personal distance from the situation at hand. What I mean by that is is somebody in an office in London or Baltimore or Singapore is looking at the financial aspect of the voyage versus employee safety. The person in the office does not have to navigate off the Horn of Somalia and run the risk of possibly being killed over a ransom. If the bean counters of the world got into one of the situations that they send people into "because it's cheaper for the company" I bet there decision making would change slightly. You don't need a gun or company of Marines to hold a ship. There are non-lethal means of defending a ship and they have been proven during a pirate attack. During the pirate heydays of old they were treated like the worst villains on the face of the earth and were killed for their crimes. Today it seems we just grab a bag of popcorn and watch the show. __________________ USS Kentucky SSBN 737 (G) Comms Div 2003-2006 Qualified 19 November 03 Yes I was really on a submarine.

06-27-09, 04:10 PM	#18
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,054 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Dont know if you've visited this site, but it has lots of real radio traffic, videos and interviews of those who were there: http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/

06-27-09, 07:01 PM	#20
OneToughHerring Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I've read the book and seen the film. I think the Bowden book is good, certainly better then the film in that it offers a view from the 'other side', that is from the Somalis point of view. And has less factual errors, the film takes quite a few artistic liberties. Here's a documentary on google video that tells about the events.

06-30-09, 05:27 AM	#24
TheSatyr Captain Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 545 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Maritime Law says you can't arm merchant ships. Besides,I think it invalidates your ship's insurance if you break maritime laws.

07-01-09, 03:52 PM	#27
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Yes I forgot you can read the minds of pirates so you know eveything that they do. Why are you wasting your time posting here at SubSim go out and take action man if this is so vital to to "shoot back" now you can look at your own theard http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=153296 Time to step up to the plate.Actions speak louder than words lets see you go on that criuse. And it has been known that pirates will often force poor local fishemen and other sea fairers to help them or die, like hey give us your fish or recive an AK round to dome. And now the fisherman could say no sir Mr.Pirate SUBMAN is coming and he will help me because he is a man of action.