Das Boot plays Silent Hunter 4 - Episodes 1 & 2 (working!)

[Rockin Robbins]

Razark knows that. He knows that he is just saying that the victims of evil have some kind of moral obligation to die willingly without fighting back. It is the old Mahatma Gandhi stupidity all over again. The aggressors call the tune. Their victims MUST dance, and dance BETTER than those who would victimize them.

Razark knows that the United States and Britain did NOT attempt to take over the entire Pacific region. He knows that the US and Britain did not commit war crimes everywhere they went. No Japanese prisoners were starved, worked to death, beaten, gassed, denied basic medical treatment or used as human shields. He knows that Japan and Germany are today not colonies of the United States, but through the free will of the United States, stand as free, independent nations, not needing to apologize to anybody. Who could be prouder of any nation on earth but Germany in the way she handled reunification with East Germany at great cost to the much more prosperous West Germans. After the war the Japanese, seeing the treatment received by the US, freely admitted that they were beaten by a morally superior people, that they would not have treated their vanquished foes with any such respect. Heck, they DIDN'T. They enslaved their victims, killing them by the hundreds of thousands during the war. The Japanese are a much different, a much stronger and better people today because they lost World War II.

Razark knows that a country attacked has the right to react with or without a declaration of war, that the right of self defense is central to and necessary to obain and retain freedom. Denying that right is the necessary first step toward totalitarianism wherever it raises its ugly, evil head.

Yes, it's the old "moral equivalency of the victim who fought back" lie, knowingly said with a sneer. It is what kept France and Britain from calling Hitler's game to an early end in the 1930's, that they bought similar lies, "if you use force to stop Germany now, you are as evil as you say Mr Hitler is." After all, he made Germany a "great" country. Who can deny his trains run on time. He pets many cats and does not pull his dog's ears like some American leaders will.

Razark knows that the stories of machine gunning lifeboat survivors have been disproved over and over again, he knows that sailors crewing merchant ships bringing stolen oil to Japan to fuel Japanese war planes, tanks, ships, land vehicles are not innocent, he knows that the United States did not enter the war from choice, but only when forced to by an attack from Japan and a declaration of war by Hitler. But truth is not necessary when making these arguments. Only the silence of those who know better, their silent assent to the lie is needed.

If talesofvalor was posting on a Jewish forum using that signature, I would agree that it was inappropriate.

Subsim IS a Jewish group, and a Catholic group, and a Ukranian group, a Russian group, a Polish group, a Norweigan (spell check isn't screaming on that one, but...) group, a French group, a German group. The word "if" need not be said, but Razark's conclusion "it was inappropriate" is all that needs to be said. Here is the strongest proponent of evil so far granting the truth of my opinion. Surely I don't need to say any more what he so clearly admits.

[Akula4745]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Please let's not start another war here. If I'm playing an historic simulation, I don't want the images censored for my protection. Anyone who plays SH2 or 3 knows what was in the white circle, and if that offends them, they should not play and probably don't.

Well said, Mr. Buddahaid... but what I don't get about this whole string is that one of the most primary recurring topics is "immersion into the moment.. into the game" - and after all it is a Uboat sim (originally anyway) - and Uboats were fielded by the Germans... yes, Nazi Germany during the war years. Isn't the use of sigs merely a way to gain further immersion into the game? Is my sig offensive to any Japanese players? If I play the Uboat missions and change my sig will that mean I have become a proponent of the Nazi philosophy? No.

Personally, my opinion would be to live and let live, gentlemen... it is just a computer game... and from my perspective the sig image one carries is simply for greater immersion into the game, and not some perverse fantasy about elitism or eliminating other races.

I mean no disrespect to anyone who lost loved ones during the war years. History can never be changed and hurt sometimes never completely goes away.

[Rockin Robbins]

I am not asking that we not show disrespect.

I ask that we show RESPECT for the opinions of those Germans who fought in the U-Boats, of those Germans who live in that great country today and let them establish proper attitudes toward the situation. U-Boat sailors savagely refute all claims that they were heroes. Their attitudes are markedly different than ours here at Subsim. They would not give us the time of day. We would deeply offend them by seeking to diminish the importance of the evil cause they fought for.

I ask that we respect the judgment of the German people, who do not allow display of the swastika in the manner we do at Subsim. Who is more qualified than they to determine what is appropriate? They have registered their opinion clearly. We should follow that.

There is a period of time beyond which it no longer matters if we cavort under banners emblazoned with swastikas. That will be after there are no longer neo-Nazi groups of a couple thousand people demonstrating across from the White House lawn. It will be after similar minded idiots are no longer shooting guards at a Jewish Holocaust museum. It will be after neo-Nazi groups in Germany are no longer. These people are deadly serious about killing every Jew and killing or subjugating any non-Aryan on the face of the earth.

The example of American Civil War reenactors is very appropriate. There are no guerrilla bands lurking in the swamp with stars and bars attacking surrounding towns and killing travelers on roads to inspire a new Confederate rebellion. Racial bigots stand discredited and looking foolish. Just as with the British and Americans who fought each other during the American revolution, our deeper ties have completely extinguished past animosity. We can now appropriately adopt "historical realism" without rancor.

That time is not here for the Nazis of World War II. The German people themselves testify to that. A poor dead guard at a museum testifies to that. Until their attitudes and positions are exterminated, adopting their symbols and roleplaying their people is not appropriate. There is a line that we need not and must not cross.

[razark]

There may not be people still fighting under the Confederate flag, but it is still waved at KKK rallies. You are asking a lot for a time when there will be no more Neo-Nazi groups, no more white power skinheads, no more hate based on race or skin color. I doubt we will ever see such a time.

But the more we fear and ban these symbols, the more power we give to them. Used in context, they are one thing. Used outside that context, they are quite another.

Civil War re-enactors using a Confederate flag is very much different from that same flag being waved by a KKK member. Displaying a Kriegsmarine recruiting poster is very far away from walking into the museum and opening fire.

The context here is a simulation of a nation's navy during a specific time period. The flag of that navy is a part of that history, and some feel that it adds immersion to their activities, in the same way the Confederate flag does at a Civil War activity. I'm sure the Civil War re-enactors aren't really trying to seceede from the Union, or own slaves; the SH3 players are also not playing to support their political views.

Razark

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, you hit on an excellent point. I don't have any problem with having a model of the Bismark with the swastika on deck, either in a plastic model or in the game. I DO have a problem with assuming the persona of a Nazi by affecting a signature picture of a smiling upright U-Boat captain under the swastika flag. I'm sure you can understand the difference while you pretend not to comprehend.

When people attend the Star Trek convention, wear painful pointy ear prostheses, give the split finger Vulcan greeting and speak in their best Spock voice, they are being harmless role-players. If they were to do the same wearing an SS uniform, carrying Nazi banners and flags, yelling "Heil Hitler" and demanding the murder of Jews, they'd be neo-Nazi kooks having a rally across from the White House. That's not so harmless.

If the actual U-Boat sailors regard themselves as ex-Nazis who performed acts worthy of contempt (and they almost unanimously do), I honor those men and regard their role as they do. I acknowledge that they performed their functions well, I admire their skill and daring, I play SH3 and the U-Boat in SH4 with a lot of enjoyment. But I'm not role-playing as a man with the ideology and symbolism the real sailors had. I play strictly from a fascination with the equipment and military situations they found themselves in.

If actual Germans regard display of Nazi emblems in a personal manner an offensive act and think it improper to allow such, I honor those people and comply. I think they would even go further than I do and would not permit you to own a plastic model of the Bismark bearing the historically accurate swastika. If I lived in Germany I would honor that law and my model of the Bismark would have a flag with a care bear or perhaps a wolf paw in the middle of the circle.

[razark]

And I don't have a problem with someone posting a sig picture, in the context of a WWII subsim discussion forum. If they start posting "in character", then I would probably have a bit of a problem. If they start dressing up and role-playing in the real world, they're taking it way too far, unless they are doing so as a re-enactment.

A different opinion. If the swastika bothers you that much, don't look at it, ignore it. Life will go on.

If the Germans wish to ban the symbol, they shall. I believe that making a symbol forbidden only gives it that much more power. They don't control everybody, though, and people are free to do what they wish in other places. If I recall correctly, the Germans do allow the symbols of the Third Reich to be used in artistic and historical context. I guess you could define a sig picture as art.

Razark

[AVGWarhawk]

Take a break gents. Continue with a PM to each other if you want.

[AVGWarhawk]

Thead open. For those deep into discussing sigs and the significance of the content I suggest a new thread is started. Keep it nice nice.

[Rockin Robbins]

OK, I'm calling new thread and leave this one for discussion of Kapitan_Phillips' videos.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

OK, I'm calling new thread and leave this one for discussion of Kapitan_Phillips' videos.

Best post from you yet

[MC-Maxim]

Hahahahaha ... AWESOME !

[Rockin Robbins]

We're about due for a sequel, aren't we Kapitan?

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Das Boot plays Silent Hunter 4: Episode III - JGSME Jurgen

is officially in production

[Kipparikalle]

Sounds good, althought I really hope some improvement in the humour

[Rockin Robbins]

Ouch! I didn't produce those movies and that hurt. While it is true that if you're watching the movies now with the fixes we have, you're wondering what's funny, you have to judge the videos by the standard of the time they were made.

There were a hatful of features that were.......old hat in SH3 that just didn't work in SH4. There was only one that I can think of (the save game forgetting your career) that was actually fixed going from SH3 to SH4. It was either laugh or cry. Kaptian_Phillips chose to laugh.