Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Mr.O'Bannon

I am not as outspoken as you, but in reading this board for awhile I haven't seen anything that causes me to think there may be a problem. If you are referring to the slain guard at the holocaust museum, I don't know how that ties in to the use of historical flags in a WWII game. There are sociopaths of every variety out there, and being sociopathic causes them to do evil to others, not using historical flags in a u-boat game. Excuse my bluntness, I am not disparaging you, but I just don't feel alarmed as you do.

He's not talking about the use of historical flags in the game, just the use of Nazi symbolism in forum signatures.

[sharkbit]

Originally Posted by Mr.O'Bannon

.... and being sociopathic causes them to do evil to others, not using historical flags in a u-boat game.

I don't think Rockin Robbins has an issue in game. He keeps hammering home that he has a problem with it used in someone's signature. I don't think anyone has a problem with it in game. It is being used in a historical context.

My opinion, for what's it worth:
I too don't have an issue with it when used in game. I raise eyebrows when I see it used as a signature as well. I don't get as riled up about it as RR does, but that's just me. It is the internet afterall.
To me the signature usually says something about one's self to some degree. I'm not necessarily saying that if you have a swastika in your sig, you are following Nazi ideals in your own life, but it would make me wonder.

Someone has or used to have a signature with SS runes and the 2nd SS Division(or some other division-I can't remember which) and that really made my skin crawl. Someone called him out on it(maybe RR?-) and I believe he changed the runes but left the rest of the sig alone and explained his reasoning. Everytime I saw it though, it just made me wonder.

[FIREWALL]

I recommend everyone go back and read the last part of Post #56

It's the only post that counts.

[Rockin Robbins]

It says that discussing the issue is fine. It says that the issue will be discussed from time to time. It calls on us to be civil. There's a problem here? I suggest you hit the report button then. Or the ignore button.

I think we have surprising agreement here. Nobody is insisting that their standards be enforced. Well, one said that would be acceptable, and it would have to be, for if Neal did what they do at SimHQ and outlawed all Nazi symbolism in all contexts, then we would accept his ruling or leave. This is not a democracy. Democracies don't tolerate minority opinions.

I am perfectly willing to default to freedom, both in your right use an image of your choosing for a signature pic and my right to say that such a choice is inappropriate and offensive. I don't see any sign that Subsim has a problem.

I do think that periodically it's good to examine the question of exactly what is appropriate and what is not. If it keeps someone without much knowledge of WWII from picking that cool looking (Nazi stuff has a very high cool factor. It is just imposing and striking), pic as a signature, unaware of what it means, then the thread is not silly, but very useful.

It's easy to forget that Naziism is alive and dangerous. Here are a few pics from a neo-Nazi rally in Columbia, South Carolina just a few years ago:


Happy birthday, Dolf! We miss you! (kiss, kiss)


Partial phone number in case you're interesting in learning the goose step. I hear it is good exercise!


Ain't that heartwarming, the good daddy and his little girls. Awwwwww!


There you go! Siggy picture extraordinaire! Smile, kid! Don't worry, it's all harmless fun. All the REAL Nazis are gone....aren't they?

Yeah, these slimeballs are out there. According to Der Spiegel 6,000 of them marched in Dresden this February. They rally under 3rd Reich banners and symbolism. They kill people and blow up innocent buildings. If you're one of them, please adopt an appropriate signature and siggy pic. If you're not, do you want to be associated with that?

[Aramike]

To me the signature usually says something about one's self to some degree.

To me, all it's saying is that someone is playing as the skipper of a U-Boat. Considering that U-Boats flew the Nazi flag at the time in question, to me the meaning is obvious and harmless.

This is, to me, an example of how society has gotten way too comfortable with feeling offended. No longer do some people even bother to try to find the intent behind things - rather, they simply demand that things are changed. Frankly, I think it's more of a control issue than anything, but that's just me.

Certainly, this is a special case. The Nazi flag is almost universally accepted as a symbol of past evil. It represents a historical era which had seen great atrocities and the worst of mankind.

But that era DID happen. And, many (if not almost all) of us have played a game in the role of SUPPORTING the mission the flag represents.

Clearly, no one here supports Nazism (at least I hope). But, many here have immersed themselves in doing the "devil's work" as a U-Boat captain. How can THAT bit of historical context be reconciled as acceptable while the flag, AS A periphery, cannot?

[Aramike]

RR, your post certainly does highlight the evils of morons, but how is that relevent? No one is using the symbol in that context, and the actual context is clear.

What I'm curious is how the symbol used in a periphery is any worse than a signature that brags it killed X amount of tons of British shipping (and people to boot)...

Like I said, I think "offense" has become a code-word for "control".

[AVGWarhawk]

Clearly, no one here supports Nazism (at least I hope). But, many here have immersed themselves in doing the "devil's work" as a U-Boat captain. How can THAT bit of historical context be reconciled as acceptable while the flag, AS A periphery, cannot?

Damn fine question. It is accepted that it (flag) is in game. Outside of a game the flag is something altogether different and not of historical immersion the player attempts to recreate in game.

Let's look at it this way, would anyone here drive down the road with the swastika painted on the door of the car? Is that any different than having it in a sig on the internet?

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Clearly, no one here supports Nazism (at least I hope).

But if they do, I've provided nice, wholesome siggy pic material!

Hold it, here you go! A fine specimen of 4th Reich manhood!


Fine siggy pic material

[ReallyDedPoet]

Using a sig. with a swastika is the gaming forums is one thing, using it in the General Topics Forum is quite another.

Any sigs. with a swastika that I have seen have been in the gaming forums and in relation to a particular game. Anything blatant in the these forums have been dealt with\edited out in the past. Blatant being the swastika is very prominently featured.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Clearly, no one here supports Nazism (at least I hope). But, many here have immersed themselves in doing the "devil's work" as a U-Boat captain. How can THAT bit of historical context be reconciled as acceptable while the flag, AS A periphery, cannot?

Because when I turn off the game, no one has died. No one has been injured. No damage has been done. The Nazis haven't come closer to conquering Europe. Playing SH3 doesn't further the Nazi's goals. I don't have to swear allegiance to the Fuehrer or the Fatherland to play SH3.

[Armistead]

If you trace any symbol enough someone could rightly say it's offensive. Should I say the American Flag is offensive because slavery existed under it for about a hundred years longer than it did under the Confederate Flag, for all the Indians that were murdered and robbed under it?...In truth it could be just offensive to many groups of people. Should we remove it from the game. We, like the Nazi's were just as brutal, only difference is we won, so it doesn't bother us....We would all stand and say we now know the difference..doesn't change the past history of those we conquered.

We should also remove the Russian flag for it's evil, the Spanish flag for it's evil,...and so on.

Behind every great nation lies an evil that was done, where life and property by war won the day.

I've never understood people that get so upset and don't understand the difference between those that play video games and those that do things in real life. Believe it or not 99% of people know the difference, the 1% that doesn't would still be acting the way they do video games or not.

What'ts silly is your mind knows all the symbols and reality and people pretend their need to be minds..er, screwed so they don't have to know about it as if they don't exist.

This is why we will eventually be limited from about everything, knowledge, truth, so we can all be politically correct. One person can come in and ruin anything today by screaming "you're all racist for this or that." when people simply want to immerse themselves into the reality of history.

[Rockin Robbins]

Yes, definitely. I'll bet Subsim wouldn't allow the one recruitment poster with the four swastikas in the General Forums, but it would be perfectly acceptable here.

Subsim has good rules. Most of the other forums have adopted no tolerance rules that just don't make sense when dealing with a game where World War II Germany is the subject matter.

Hats off to Neal Stevens, his love of freedom, his trust in his site members and his tolerance of those of us who push the limits sometimes.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

Using a sig. with a swastika is the gaming forums is one thing, using it in the General Topics Forum is quite another.

Any sigs. with a swastika that I have seen have been in the gaming forums and in relation to a particular game. Anything blatant in the these forums have been dealt with\edited out in the past. Blatant being the swastika is very prominently featured.

That man in a dress is offensive.....

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Yes, definitely. I'll bet Subsim wouldn't allow the one recruitment poster with the four swastikas in the General Forums, but it would be perfectly acceptable here.

Not exactly, as mentioned in the gaming forums I have seen those sigs. with a swastika figured prominently are edited out or asked to tone it down. Is it flawless\perfect the way the issue is dealt with, not exactly, Neal himself admits this, but over the years it has for the most part been managed fairly well here at SUBSIM.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Because when I turn off the game, no one has died. No one has been injured. No damage has been done. The Nazis haven't come closer to conquering Europe. Playing SH3 doesn't further the Nazi's goals. I don't have to swear allegiance to the Fuehrer or the Fatherland to play SH3.

And when you have a signature on the Internet, in context, is any damage done?

You kind of made my point.