Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[FIREWALL]

Personally, I don't see the Swastika any more or less offensive than the Rising Sun or Hammer & Sickle when used in a Mod or Role Playing use.

Hell ! In 5yrs there will probably be more flags or insignia's on the list in new Sims.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Joe S

One more comment, a great many books on the subject state that U-boat crews who were captured and interrogated were almost always described as fanatical Nazis. I dont know that I believe that they all were fanatical Nazis, but that is how the British apparently viewed them. Joe S

Of course they said that. It's much easier to garner public support for your war when you paint the bad guys as inhuman monsters.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Armistead

This is so silly.

Someone needs to make a politically correct German sub....and be creative....just use smiley faces.

Groovy man...

[Rockin Robbins]

Was it Jimbuna who quoted a section of a captured German crew interrogation by the British? It was hilarious! The British had already figured out what sort of comic book martinets the German Crew was and just stuffed the real people into their already prepared mold. They needed a lot of forcing to make them fit, but what of it!

They especially made light of the crew's girlie pictures and racy magazines. As if every British sub didn't have the same thing going on! (after all, how else would they know where the stuff was hidden hehe) But no, the German crew was especially crude and had literature of no cultural value whatever (sniff, sniff). Monty Python had a lot of truth in it.

Yup, tried to paint the Germans as a bunch of monsters and just made themselves look silly.

[Buddahaid]

I've been thinking on this all day and I'll agree, as a sig, it's at least in bad taste. But I also wonder if Germany outlawing it's use is wrongheaded? Yes, the nation would love to live it down and make it go away, but it also did really happen and nothing can take that away. It seems to amount to covering your eyes with your hands and declaring it gone. In any case, why not let the current nazi's use it? It makes them easy to spot and they're still all over the place, at least in the USA.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rising sun flag the Japanese maritime flag, and still in use today? I recall seeing it recently flying on the stern of a ship in a documentary about finding a sunken I-400.

Buddahaid

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[Highbury]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rising sun flag the Japanese maritime flag, and still in use today? I recall seeing it recently flying on the stern of a ship in a documentary about finding a sunken I-400.

Buddahaid

It is indeed still the flag of the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Forces, which is what they call their Navy now. It is however viewed by others as synonymous with Japanese militarism in WW2. This was shown when Japanese fans at the Olympics were warned not to wave them, by the Chinese Embassy, as it might illicit bad feelings from the Chinese.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...35118820080808

[XLjedi]

It is a game on the one hand...

It's a history lesson on the other. I don't like erasing or editing parts of history books. If you fight the Germans in WWII you're going to come across a swastika.

However, excluding the markings from the vanilla SH3/4 doesn't phase me a lot due to the fact that the most famous/infamous boats had no such markings. ...and from the books I've read it seems as though a number of the boat captains resisted (or at least privately resented) the politics and practices of the Nazis.

To me, a more noticeable omission would've been to exclude the red devil, swordfish, bull, or olympic rings. Personally, the rings are my favorite because they were said to be used by a number of boats and not necessarily affiliated with a single captain or crew.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Task Force

In my opinion, the swastika means nothing other than... well as symbol of a nation that fell years ago... It had other meaning before the war.

Heres what wikipedia has to say about the Swastika.

The swastika (from Sanskrit svástika स्वस्तिक) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, in either right-facing (卐) form or its mirrored left-facing (卍) form. Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic period. It occurs mainly in the modern day culture of India, sometimes as a geometrical motif and sometimes as a religious symbol. It remains widely used in Eastern religions / Dharmic religion such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.
Though once commonly used all over much of the world without stigma, because of its iconic usage in Nazi Germany the symbol has become stigmatized in the Western world, and it has notably been outlawed in Germany if used as symbol of Nazism. Usage of the sign by religious groups is tolerated. Many modern far right and neo-nazi groups such as Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging or Russian National Unity use stylised swastikas or similar symbols.

so it use to be a good thing, a religious symbol, then it was turnt into the National german workers partys symbol.

So what, maybe in a thousand years sensibilities in europe will be so that the use of the svastika symbol won't be given second thought (and everybody will think of its religous symbolism forgetting what it actually represented for 15 years in the 20th century). But right now, not even a century has passed since the end of WW2 and all of the atrocities comitted by a regime whose symbol is the svastika.
These things just don't dissapear overnight you know ?

[Rockin Robbins]

Owner, the attributes of the game have never been questioned or even discussed in my posts. I've talked only about attributes of Subsim members and the propriety of wrapping oneself in the Nazi emblem. No my thread is not to "started not For the Game Itself, Just to cause ., Public Opinion on A Game?" whatever that means.

I have no problem whatever with Nazi emblems used in a historical context within the game. I understand and agree with Ubi's decision to avoid that. I understand and agree with modders' efforts to produce options to restore them. They existed. Their existence within a simulation is justified. I enjoy playing the U-Boat side of SH4UBM and SH3.

The rising sun is a national, not a party flag and as such is just as rehabilitated as the Japanese and German people. It wouldn't be appropriate to question the propriety of its use. Respect for the people of the nations of Germany and Japan dictates that we allow them to choose their own flags.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Was it Jimbuna who quoted a section of a captured German crew interrogation by the British? It was hilarious! The British had already figured out what sort of comic book martinets the German Crew was and just stuffed the real people into their already prepared mold. They needed a lot of forcing to make them fit, but what of it!

They especially made light of the crew's girlie pictures and racy magazines. As if every British sub didn't have the same thing going on! (after all, how else would they know where the stuff was hidden hehe) But no, the German crew was especially crude and had literature of no cultural value whatever (sniff, sniff). Monty Python had a lot of truth in it.

Yup, tried to paint the Germans as a bunch of monsters and just made themselves look silly.

No....not me, but I do vaguely recall the thread you are referring to.

[Rockin Robbins]

I'd love it if you or somebody could find it and paste the quote here. It was priceless!

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I'd love it if you or somebody could find it and paste the quote here. It was priceless!

Without a title or rough guesstimate of date/contributors, would be like looking for a needle in a haystack

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Without a title or rough guesstimate of date/contributors, would be like looking for a needle in a haystack

"Among personal property captured from U 570" were a number of parodies, skits and poems, all of an unrelievedly coarse and obscene nature, there being scarcely a single redeeming witty phrase in the whole. A strong undercurrent of unashamed blasphemy was apparent, and may well be a result of modern Hitler Youth training."

From this thread referencing this Interrogation report.

[Rockin Robbins]

Wooo Hooo! Thank you mookie. That was well worth dredging up. From the self-mocking tone of Churchill's "U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs," I don't think he bought into that claptrap.

But the tone of the interrogation report shows that someone in Britain was a bit delusional. Wonder if they read it after the war and were embarrassed?