Russia, NATO in battle of wills over Georgia

[HunterICX]

Simple:

NATO needs to piss off, it has nothing to look for in Georgia its none of their business.
and making them a part of the NATO is just so they can wave their angry fist at Russia.

HunterICX

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

and making them a part of the NATO is just so they can wave their angry fist at Russia.

Yes. I just remind of how Poland has abused the umbrella of the EU to ***** Russia with long needles and provokes them at every possible, minor opportunity. And when the bear grumbled, they yelled for help against the bad big monster biting westward again.

the thing I do not understand with Georgia is that Russia since centuries (and therefore since long before the USSR) has been the most important interational market place and trade partner for them. By making russia their enemy, they have very much crushed a major part of their own economy, and have abandoned the primary foreign market especially for their agriculture. Clever.

[Steel_Tomb]

I can't be bothered to even read the whole post.... my arguments probably not very clearly constructed as it resembles more of a rant than anything else. And a lot of that is just my personal opinion, so do with it what you like.

However, I'd like to voice my opinion on a couple of things. This is my personal opinion, it may, or may not be correct... but its my view nonetheless.
Skybird, lets take everything aside for one moment historically...

Russia to "legitimize" their "peace-keeping" *cough?* operations handed out Russian Passports to South Ossetians to make them Russia, and give them an excuse to send in the troops. Now to me, regardless of that very small minorities opinions against Georgia as a whole... its a damned cheap and ****ty tactic to use.

Its like the French handing out French Passports to the Scots... I know they don't exactly like the English much, but it doens't give them the right to start going around saying "oh oh they're XXXX citizens, lets go and get them" and medeling with internal affairs. Personally, when they started to do the same in Ukraine alarms bells started ringing for me, especially since the whole row over renewing the lease for the Sevastapol base to the Russians.

If those people DON'T like being Ukrainean/Georgian, then bugger off to RUSSIA... the fact that Russia used this fact that they were "rescueing Russian Citizens" was just, in my opinion and complete load of utter cobblers. Russia expects to be taken seriously in the international domain, when the only way they can be successful is to employ cheap, dirty tricks with their neighbours whilst undermining their independence through economic blackmail, hmm yeah... very responsible nation.

Just for the record, my comments towards Putin and his ongoing Regime were mainly for public freedoms, mainly the press. Since the Kursk Disaster (no I'm not opening that can of worms, you may breath easily) Putin, after the failures of Government and inept leaders in the military lead to them not being able to organise a piss up in a Vodka distilery lead to HUGE public outcry... In Britain, the Govenment would have its ass hung out to dry by the media and their polls would take a hammering for a few months until people forgot.

In Russia, the answer to that problem according to the oh-so democratic Putin is to crush the free press, along with freedom of speech in general and to centralise everything into state run television. Now I'm no expert on all things politics, so I won't pretend to... but that really doesn't seem wholey democratic and free for some peculiar reason.

I'm sorry, but the ongoing international attitudes of the big wigs in the Kremlin, and their internal policies mean that I have absolutely NO respect for them. They're their own worst enemy, instead of taking the fall for their mistakes; they cover up and easily remove the evidence through state run TV... its a complete farse.

/Rant

[Max2147]

This isn't about Russia, it's about GEORGIA and that little whiny punk Saakhashvili.

Georgia only wants to be in NATO so they can keep the South Ossetians and Abkhazians under their thumb. Georgia would never fight for us, they just want us to fight for them.

Remember, Georgia started the war last summer. Those who carefully analyzed Russia's troop movements said it was very clear that Russia was not planning to attack Georgia before the war broke out. Saakashvili told the United States he wanted to attack South Ossetia. The United States told him not to do it. We told him that he couldn't expect any military help from us, for obvious reasons. It would be insane for us to get into a shooting war with the Russians over Georgia.

So what happens? Saakashvili ignores our advice and attacks South Ossetia anyways. When the Russians come in and start giving him his well-deserved spanking, he whines to anybody and everybody at how horrible the US is for not coming in and fighting against the Russians, even though we'd told him before the war that we didn't want him messing with the Russians!

I don't want a country like that in NATO. If Saakashvili had been in NATO last summer he would have invoked Article 5 and could have started World War III, all because his Napoleonic ego can't tolerate the South Ossetians being free. Do you want American soldiers fighting and dying for somebody like that?

[Skybird]

ST,

There were at least two long threads about Georgia back in last august and september, and I said everything I have to say on it back then, and then several times. The way you paint the story is very one-sided, and it was painted like that in August as well before the whole isue back then became very personal, too. We meanwhile learned that the story has quite some more faces and complexity than you maybe are aware of. Georgia in no way is the poor innocent victim here. And regarding the outbreak of the war, it clearly is the agressor. but the history of provoking the Russians leads even long before that - as does the history of Georgias brutal and often lethal supression of the ethnic majorities in Ossetia and Abhazia.

However, I refer to those pages-long threads and what I said back then, and I refer to that link to a very long essay with a very interesting political and military analysis that I posted back then. It all can be find via the search-button, I assume.

If it is of any satisfaction for you, both provinces are pains in the Russian's lower bottom, they have been anything but stable administrative constructions before, and since last summer have turned into extreme corrupt parasites with organised criminal clans in command and a lot of corruption sucking Russian blood (=money). The Russians, though sticking with the policy of accepting their independance and accepting protective guarantees for them, will not have much joy with them - not now and not in the future.

[Skybird]

New clashes in Tiblisi, government cracks down on democratic opposition:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036942.stm

Growing rage and poverty:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...623245,00.html

And a wonderfully precise comment by the German paper Die Zeit that the manouvers now and the claim one wants to improve relations with russia are total contradictions and are a sequel to Cheneys fanatical policy of confrontation with Russia. First the German original, then a bot-translation:

http://images.zeit.de/text/online/20...r-usa-russland

http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools