Teh Nazis!

Originally Posted by heartc

It's very simple, really. It were difficult times back then, and after WWI, Germany wasn't dealt with all that fairly (which however is to be expected when loosing a f*cking World War), the Weimar Republic was unable to conduct policy in a believable and meaningfull manner, the country was threatened by communism from the outside as well as the inside, which most people soundly rejected, so when a man appeared who gave hysterical speeches (I still don't get all this "he was a great speaker" BS) who pretended to know the solution to all problems, people a) fell for it or b) considered him to be the lesser of evils. They all failed to see that you cannot build something on the basis of hatred, though. Or they tried to ignore those parts, which is difficult to imagine though because then there's not much of a Hitler speech left. Anyway, that is what happened and we have to accept that, end of story.

But OF COURSE, that DOESN'T mean that Germany today should belittle itself in international politics or take the Nazi blame card when someone else is running out of proper arguments. And frankly, I don't see that happening all that much, anyway. And if it does, we shouldn't take it all that seriously, as it is usually for domestic reasons of the other country as it tries to appeal to her lowest-in-intellect demographic group, and nothing else.

Those guys on "YouTube" that you talked about, Bewolf - they are usually the dumbest creatures to populate the internet since recently. On international YouTube but especially country-specific YouTube, because they are those guys who haven't even discovered that one of the points of the internet is to be an international platform or they can't even speak basic English that would suffice for their one-liners. I'm not surprised at all when YouTube commentators think they are onto yet another global and/or probably Jewish world conspiracy. I wouldn't even talk to them, they should go f*ck themselves. They are those people where I wonder how they even survive each day with so many trucks on the roads.

But I know that this dumb crap is unfortunately not only limited to YouTube, you also can hear it in on other - real life - occasions. Well, this is the result of the retarded way how this country and many parents dealt with our history.

Pretending that "the Nazis" had nothing to do with "the Germans" but fell down from Mars is how not to deal with it. Whining that some 70 years after, people are still remembering the Nazis and the fire that swept through all of Europe, is how not to deal with it. They will remember it in 1000 years. Pretending that other countries are using the Nazi card against us when *we* f*cked up, is not how to deal with it. Comparing Israel's struggle in the ME against people that think Dead Jew = Good Jew to the wars of aggression Nazi-Germany fought, is not how to deal with it. Whining that the US are running Konzentrationslager when they hold captive illegal combatants, is not how to deal with it. Comparing Bush to Hitler is not how to deal with it.

But suggesting to young children that they are somehow guilty by birth is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that conservative values are always somehow on the brink to fall off into Nazism, is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that "Left/Green" is always good and "Right" is always bad, is not how to deal with it either. Suggesting that any notion of national pride or the wish to keep national / cultural identity is somehow evil, is not how to deal with it either. When you try to stop people from becoming Nazis / irrational by fighting their very own identity and declare evil their very basic, natural and human notions of "my culture", "my country" and "my people", which have been with humans since ever, then you will instead make them RECEPTIBLE for another madman who will step into the void that was left open irresponsibly by a lot of dumbasses who were busy with trying to be "less Nazi" than the next guy or their political opponent.

Here, too, absolute agreement. Most of what was said in this thread so far I tend to agree with anyways. But this all does not solve the problems. Sure, youtube lures the dumbest people to posting. But the most stupid ones are usually also the most vocal ones, thus also making the biggest impact. With propper education and trust in oneself it is not problem to counter these folks, but the real problem is most youtube users usually are of lower age. And at this age a lot about future character development and views is decided.

Now imagine, you are 17 years of age, school taught you about atrocities and the ever returning "do not forget" on the one hand, the achievements of german society back then till today on the other hand, making you a little bit proud of the turnaround we managed, and then you go on forums, boards, youtube, basicly all international communication platforms the internet provides nowadays, and you get spit in your face.

Sure, the folks doing this spitting usually are the more stupid people, those without propper knowledge or simply to the fanatical right or left from other countries that consider all their ills in their country today as a result of the war. But your average 17 year old won't be able to differ between mature folks and stupid ones yet.

Let's also say most are right that the german governemnt is rather incapable and no solution will be found from within the political establishment in the foreseeable future due to political correctness issues and most of all, simple convinience in not changing ways that worked for 60 years....how do you personally act?

Originally Posted by Thomen

Must be different from state to state or even city to city. The school I went to covert WW2 quite extensively, and to some detail even WW 1.
I remember writing a couple of essays about WW2 and asking my Grandparents for details.

Same here. We even got a good briefing from the end of the Napoleonic wars till today, including the events leading up to 1848/49, foundation of the empire 1871 going through to the timeframe of 1918 and covered the Weimar Republic from this point in time until 1945 and beyond.

Few people realize that the Weimar Constitution was still in effect by 1945 and, as it was never officially absolished, in effect to this day. Actually the whole "Deutsches Reich" was never put ad acta, which leads some concreteheads to proclaim the reestiblishment of the Reich.

[August]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

...how do you personally act?

There are no easy answers Bewolf but your youth can't be allowed to give up trying. Germany has to make itself better known for something else and that's going to take a long time. Like I said earlier it hasn't even been a century yet since WW2. That is just a blink of an eye in terms of national identity.

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

Haplo that's a good read, but it still contains largely what i've come to expect from people regarding this topic. To say "we were threatened and couldn't speak out against the Nazis" doesn't work. Hitler didn't end up in control by magic. Millions of German citizens did not enlist in his armies and enthusiastically conquer Europe by chance.

I agree Germans did oppose the Nazis. My point is that not enough of them did. White Rose was mostly made up of a few scattered college students. If German citizens were as opposed to the Nazis as you claim, White Rose and Rossenstrasse would have been much larger and more frequent regardless of threats. We would have seen more men like Oskar Schindler.

But we didn't. Because the reality is German citizens were not staunchly opposed to the Nazis until the Nazis ironically started to turn against them as the war came to a close. Which is probably what she means by German opposition to the Nazis. The problem is, opposing the Nazis in 1945 and not in 1935 is the epitome of "day late and a dollar short".



Neo Nazis exist. I agree the suppression of Nazi party hints in Germany is a bit extreme at times but their is a logical reason Germans try to avoid it. They don't want Nazi memorabilia to be collected or sighted and used as a rallying point for contemparary National Socialists.

You are correct. Not because I do not agree to Schroeders outlining of what happend and how it happend and why there was so few resistance. I understand where he is coming from and I agree to him in large parts. But understanding does not mean pologizising, and if we do not hold this generation accaountable for what happend...then who is? And what does this say about humanity and it's will to hold up principles in general? If a ppl wants to be percieved as mature, strong willed and capable, in control of their fate instead of just beeing sheep, it has to face the consequences of their actions. And if this includes the acceptance of a brutal Dictatorship, danger for life or not, it has to deal with the results later on.

We could have done much more. A few times mass ralleys happend to protect jews from deportation. These were very few inbetween, but nobody came to harm, the jews were saved and nobody arrested. The Nazis politics relied on stealth and secercy. Public outrage was greatly feared by the Nazis due to the results that led to the end of World War I. Had more germans shown civil courage and gathered to protest, lots could have been prevented. Yes, it was a time of crisis, and the mass exectutions only took place after world war 2 started and the ppl really other problems to deal with. But the responsebility does not vanish just because of that. If you whitewash the happenings back then on the basis of human nature, which you actually can, you undermine the general appliance of morales and ethnics, which is a Persilschein for future occurances of such happenings.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

If you whitewash the happenings back then on the basis of human nature, which you actually can, you undermine the general appliance of morales and ethnics, which is a Persilschein for future occurances of such happenings.

QFT.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

But understanding does not mean pologizising, and if we do not hold this generation accaountable for what happend...then who is?...

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm holding the individuals accountable for all the crimes they committed. Those who were involved in crimes should have to answer for them.
I just don't like a certain generalization.

@heartc
May I ask what QFT is standing for?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm holding the individuals accountable for all the crimes they committed. Those who were involved in crimes should have to answer for them.
I just don't like a certain generalization.

@heartc
May I ask what QFT is standing for?

"Quoted For Truth" - "qft" is a label used on Internet forums when someone quotes a debated statement, thereby ensuring that the original statement cannot be edited or deleted by the person being quoted. Later also used as a sign of agreement with another poster.

[Schroeder]

Thanks.

[Platapus]

QFT also means that the previous post agreed with my opinion.

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

Millions of German citizens did not enlist in his armies and enthusiastically conquer Europe by chance.

Don't forget, conscription was instated in 1935.

The problem is, opposing the Nazis in 1945 and not in 1935 is the epitome of "day late and a dollar short".

There was an assassination attempt on Hitler in November 1939. If it had succeeded, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

By all means Stalin and his regime were equally cruel and sadistic. The difference is no one covered for him after death. The Post-Stalin Soviet Union actually went out the way to discredit Stalin and his public image for good reason.

Au contraire. The destalinization initiated by Khruschev was not that far reaching. Prisoners were released, and some criticism of Stalinism was allowed, but the shear tragedy of the gulag era could be touched on only obliquely. There was no complete expose of the gulag system until Glasnost. And even after the fall of the Soviet Union, the Kremlin's contrition for that whole 50 year occupation thing was pathetic.

The man was a tyrant, and the Soviet and modern people of Russia never liked him.

Many Russians today respect Stalin for making the USSR a superpower. And ALOT of Soviets absolutely LOVED Stalin back then. And why not? When you have a closed society with no free flow of information, where the price of dissent is imprisonment, torture or death, and you're spoon fed propaganda that your leader is a virtual demi-god, what do you expect is going to happen? Why can't the same be applied to the Germans of the 30s and 40s?

It's very easy to criticize when you have access to all the information granted by hindsight, and you're safe and sound in your liberal democracy where your rights to information, dissent and activism are guaranteed.

Interesting thread, I read pretty much everyone's reply. Very interesting to read about German opinions about their past.

As a Finn we sort of have similar problems concerning our history of WW 2. Some Finns volunteered as Waffen SS and there has been some debate about these guys and how much they should be honoured etc. It's pretty common to see usually young guys on the streets wearing hoodies etc. with the images of Iron Crosses on them, either that or some kind of 'respect the veterans' message. The way I've understood these is that they are a kind of 'response' to the Che Guevara - t-shirts etc. I would not wear either but I think that the wearing of these iron cross images is a Finnish thing, I can't imagine seeing them in Holland or even the UK.

I don't think there has been a 'monster' in the history that has been buried and shamed as much as Hitler and his cronies. France had Napoleon and he has a very respectable looking monument at the Hotel des Invalides (sp?). I remember reading that when Leo Tolstoi, the great Russian novelist, visited Paris and saw Napoleon's grave monument he was astounded that the French would have such a positive monument to such a monster and enemy of Russia.

I kinda sometimes wonder about some of these people who seem to have such a bottomless fervour about the WW2 German armed forces, for example net sites like Feldgrau.com etc. I know these people are not nazis but are they, perhaps unknowingly, sort of eroding the line between nazism and what they claim as genuine intrest in WW2 and the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, etc.?

And slightly OT, Capt. Haplo, I'm not sure if the slave reparation issue is truly and well dealt with and in the past. For a long time I used to think so but lately I've been hearing this slowly building cry about the issue. IMO it would be both very difficult if not impossible and possibly very dangerous to try to stifle and quiet this issue completely. I've actually seen some numbers that people have thrown as examples what could constitute as a suitable reparation figure and they are pretty big figures. But this is a bit OT so no more of that.

A whole another issue would be native American reparations, I can't even begin to fathom that issue in it's entirety.

There was more then just one attempt to kill Hitler. The 44 Stauffenberg Plot was just the largest and most ambitious one.

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2972

Thread requires humor. :P

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by Rilder

Thread requires humor. :P

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Rilder

Thread requires humor. :P

Most definitely