GWX - Silent running in Type XXI

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Well, whatever the rate... something you guys need to know about the Type XXI.

IN SH3 it is the BUGGIEST player U-boat available... and understandably so from my point of view. (seeing the challenges that the SH3 Ubisoft dev team faced)

I'm sure that the XXI was the least of their priorities in comparison with the commonly used U-boats.

My research yields a possible TWO short war patrols carried out in the XXI in real life... neither of which yielded any sinkings. (IIRC Erich Topp carried out one of these patrols.)

We will come up with a silent running solution for the XXI in GWX... but it will naturally have to be a compromise of sorts. We'll have to work with what we've got.

KL

Thank you for your continuing efforts to refine GWX if I locate a balance that works I will let you know.MM

[Txema]

Kpt. Lehmann,

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

We will come up with a silent running solution for the XXI in GWX... but it will naturally have to be a compromise of sorts. We'll have to work with what we've got.

KL

Looking forward to it.

Thank you !!!!


Txema

[Txema]

Mush Martin,

Originally Posted by Mush Martin

alright well my new home made JSGME Fast Loader for single missions works
great I was In and out four times since my last post.

Here is what I learned

When you change submerged RPM or Horsepower it doesnt appear to change
your sound signature in the game. changing rpm appears to change the pitch and beat rythm of the noise you make but not the volume relative to detection by AI. Changing Horse power will only affect your acceleration curve
and although I thought it would reduce noise output by working less hard to go at speed like the real world it didnt in the research scrimmage.

I am afraid that this avenue of solving the problem is closed it is in the sensor and AI that detection over two knots is happening not in the "noise signature" of the sub, (I think!)

also since I forgot to right them down could somebody look in file analyzer and pm me the correct horsepower and rpm settings for underwater in the type XXI I would like it to be correct when I get there in my campaign.
MM

Thank you very much for all your research !!!


Txema

[Hartmann]

5 knts it´s not a cheat, it was the real XXI performance , for this was so lethal and advanced.
http://uboat.net/technical/electroboats3.htm

At 2 knts lost lost advantage and is like a VII boat.

[Vikinger]

Iam thinking i same terms that 5 knots is not cheating.

Silent running is to reduce the caviation so the enemy cant hear the noise it creates.

If you take a tin can (vic sub) That barely dont have any streamlines. it takes more power to force it thrue water at 5 knots. They where forced to go down to 2 knots so they used less power (rpm) to reduce the caviation that was created.

Whit the XXI sub that was far more stream line shaped, it didint take same power to go in 5 knots that it did for a vic so result was, less power (rpm) and less caviation but ability to go at 5 knots.

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by Vikinger

Iam thinking i same terms that 5 knots is not cheating.

Silent running is to reduce the caviation so the enemy cant hear the noise it creates.

If you take a tin can (vic sub) That barely dont have any streamlines. it takes more power to force it thrue water at 5 knots. They where forced to go down to 2 knots so they used less power (rpm) to reduce the caviation that was created.

Whit the XXI sub that was far more stream line shaped, it didint take same power to go in 5 knots that it did for a vic so result was, less power (rpm) and less caviation but ability to go at 5 knots.

This was historical performance of the vehicle. therefore this is enhancement or correction but not a cheat.MM.

[edit] believe me I cheat all the time and this aint it try porpoiseing down to 110 metre's with your gun crew on deck at 170 knots thats cheating, this is nothing. MM

[bigboywooly]

I beleive the original speed mentioned was 7 kts is a cheat
lol
Its not so much a cheat anyway
You can have silent running at 30kts if you want but it seems anything over 2 kts will get you detected
SH3 doesnt model the advanced nature of the XXI apart from maybe torpedo payload and reload times
Whilst the creep engine is part of the boat - I have seen it being repaired on the odd time I have used one - mainly in testing
It isnt used as an engine
You have your diesels or electrics
No other option

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

I beleive the original speed mentioned was 7 kts is a cheat
lol
Its not so much a cheat anyway
You can have silent running at 30kts if you want but it seems anything over 2 kts will get you detected
SH3 doesnt model the advanced nature of the XXI apart from maybe torpedo payload and reload times
Whilst the creep engine is part of the boat - I have seen it being repaired on the odd time I have used one - mainly in testing
It isnt used as an engine
You have your diesels or electrics
No other option

when I originally looked it over and I put two creeper engines into my type IXB I got them working at normal speeds even. they do work are you sure that they dont automatically engage on the silent running order unseen, or have you previously seen something the makes you certain they arent used by type XXI in game.

MM.

[BooBooLovesAll]

Originally Posted by Mush Martin

when I originally looked it over and I put two creeper engines into my type IXB I got them working at normal speeds even. they do work are you sure that they dont automatically engage on the silent running order unseen, or have you previously seen something the makes you certain they arent used by type XXI in game.

MM.

Did these "creeper engines" reduce your noise emitter?

[bigboywooly]

Only that at normal silent running you are detected so they are not quiet

If they do indeed work then I stand corrected but they seem to make no difference
Well when I have used them anyway

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by BooBooLovesAll

Did these "creeper engines" reduce your noise emitter?

it was indeterminate whether they did or not reduce signature I will test it if I get a chance next time Im working on type XI it doesnt take long to switch them out, it may take time to accurately determine result.
MM

[edit] ps if it does work then it would probably solve the detection problem just by swapping creepers for mains, I cant recall clearly
but for some reason I feel I was detected with vanilla enemies at 6 knots but I feel I was safe at 5 at the time. cant remember for sure and will have to test but I can test that simultaneous to other items I need to get type XI working, as I already know that the damage screen will report engines destroyed when I put them in, (they still work though)[edit although maybe the props didnt???]

[Mush Martin]

You know something else just occurred to me as I was backreading the thread today.

many players Im sure who play with noise meter on have had the experience
of being at all stop and having forgotten to go silent seen the detector go red when enemy escort approaches red doesnt mean your detected its just a warning to the player that the circumstances they are in have created conditions of almost certain detection. after warning goes red and player remember they never went silent they hit z and order it and detector goes green.

therefore, baseline sound signature of all subs in SH3 is reduced by a percentage calculation when z is pressed. otherwise warning would stay red under above circumstances.

therefore if there is a flat percentage for all subs then it wont help but if there is a seperate percentage for each type then altering percentage of noise reduction under silent running for type XXI would solve the problem
[edit] alternatively we could make a quickie mod to add after acquiring type XXI to correct silent speed.
I am certain from above experience that this "ratio of noise reduction" exists somewhere, BBW?
MM:hmm:

[bigboywooly]

Yes the stealth meter is a false indication
Just because its red doesnt mean you are detected
Means there is a possibilty of detection
Therefore if you decrease speed or submerge or hit silent running it goes back green

I never use it so cant say for sure
I know I am detected when the escorts deviate from previous course then increase speed in my general direction
No doubt the meter would be red well before then
Which is why most players complain of being detected km's away

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

Yes the stealth meter is a false indication
Just because its red doesnt mean you are detected
Means there is a possibilty of detection
Therefore if you decrease speed or submerge or hit silent running it goes back green

I never use it so cant say for sure
I know I am detected when the escorts deviate from previous course then increase speed in my general direction
No doubt the meter would be red well before then
Which is why most players complain of being detected km's away

any idea where I might locate a setting that controls ratio of reduction????

[edit] just to clarify further for all just because you are at all stop and silent running doesnt mean the enemy cant see you either.
however under all circumstances where the enemy can see you currently the indicator will be red.

[Mush Martin]

well what weve learned so far is that creeper engines work on type XXI

Rather than swap them in I just excluded the main electric engines as previously on type IXB I had creepers up to 10 knots it didnt surprise me
that they worked, one would assume that failure of the electric engines and utilization of the creep engines werent part of the damage model.
in the real world this would have left the sub with three or four knots

It occurs to me that although the type XXI was known to be very quiet at
5 knots speed I believe that this wasnt actual silent speed I believe silent speed remains 3 or 4 knots, no different than in russian coldwar subs of one or two decades later, As type XXI is where the russians started there modern design work from, it seems unlikely that after a decade or two they wouldnt have matched its performance or surpassed it.

So fellow cake eaters lets all go and see what uboatnet has to say about actual operational speeds for type XXI.

Edit well of course plenty on type XXI but not on operational silent speed, does any body know for certain???

MM.