The proposed health care bill thread (merged)

[Sailor Steve]

Of course it's socialism. So is any plan that puts the government in charge of running our lives. My biggest problem is that while I hate the idea, I'm not entirely convinced that it's really a bad thing. I'm not arguing for it - I just don't know.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Wow, the head of the opposition party doesn't like what the other guys are doing?

In other news, water is wet.

Yes water is indeed wet unless your in washington where the definition of the word 'IS' is in dispute :rotfl:

Frankly I'm glad to see someone call this out on the senate floor. I'm sure nothing will become of it but just glad to see someone call a spade a spade.

(no thats not a racial slur)

[Zachstar]

Do you drive on the highway?

Do you trust the police to protect you?

Do you trust the fire department to atleast try to save your home or your family in an emergency?

Hate to break it to you but socialism is everywhere. And guess what? The roads dont drive you. The police have their own way of solving crimes that may not be to your satisfaction and the fire department may be having a busy day.

Its called choice. You don't like the healthcare from the gov. Get private insurance.

[Takeda Shingen]

Don't we already have a health care thread?

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Zachstar

Do you drive on the highway?

Do you trust the police to protect you?

Do you trust the fire department to atleast try to save your home or your family in an emergency?

Hate to break it to you but socialism is everywhere. And guess what? The roads dont drive you. The police have their own way of solving crimes that may not be to your satisfaction and the fire department may be having a busy day.

Its called choice. You don't like the healthcare from the gov. Get private insurance.

the problem with your statement here...

if you decide not to participate in the government run health care you STILL HAVE TO PAY FOR IT

its nonsense.

yes police protect you, and the fire department fights fires, and we use the highways... those things are funded by tax dollars... the things you have mentioned are not - never have been and probably will never be "private sector"

just think about how bias things would be if you elected not to use the police... but instead you had your own private police force that would track down criminals who have wronged you... it doesnt work that way

funding something by tax dollars doesnt automatically make it "socialism".

HOWEVER

when the government bids to take over what has traditionally been a "private Sector" issue - THATS socialism.

so what do we say when the government decides to take over the restaurant business? or the auto sales business (which literally is not far off)?

what do we say when it doesnt stop there and they want to take over construction business? or the flight school business? or the lawn care business?

sounds pretty far fetched.

but it isnt

all that the infallible Obama has done since he took office was deepen the economic crisis and expand the government's ability to take over the private sector.

[Onkel Neal]

Yes we do, any objections to merging?

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Yes we do, any objections to merging?

It got buried pretty deep but I dont care.

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah, merging brings it back to the fore.

thx
Neal

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

when the government bids to take over what has traditionally been a "private Sector" issue - THATS socialism.

Private health insurance doesn't operate along the traditional laws of economics, so it should absolutely not be private. There cannot exist a free market for it, as the forces that drive a free market are so distorted when it comes to health care that it cannot operate as such. Take a concept from Econ 101: Supply and demand. Demand will adjust to equilibrium given a certain price level and vice versa. How does this work in the health care industry? Demand is not a conscious choice, for the most part. I don't choose to break my leg, I don't choose to need emergency medical care. So what then happens to your equilibrium price point? It doesn't function. I have to pay whatever price is dictated to me. If I'm laying in the street bleeding to death, I can't make a rational consumer decision to say "nah, the marginal utility of receiving health care isn't worth the marginal price."

so what do we say when the government decides to take over the restaurant business? or the auto sales business (which literally is not far off)?

what do we say when it doesnt stop there and they want to take over construction business? or the flight school business? or the lawn care business?

We say you've fallen into the logical fallacy of the slippery slope argument.

[GoldenRivet]

Mookie -with respect - the only thing the government has proven to me in this lifetime is that it is completely incapable of managing anything... least of all health care.

Im all for Obamas health care nonsense as long as the only ones paying for it are the ones who intend to use it... but mark my words; some other poor dumb SOB of a president will be trying to fix this God awful sh*tty mess when my children are my age.

[SteamWake]

Its not just the 'opposition party' raising concearns.

The nation’s governors, Democrats as well as Republicans, voiced deep concern yesterday about the shape of the healthcare bill emerging from Congress, fearing that the federal government is about to hand them expensive new Medicaid obligations without providing the money to pay for them

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...l_cost_states/

[mookiemookie]

Here's your "free market" at work - United, WellPoint, Aetna, Cigna, GHI/HIP, Capital District Physicians' Health Plan, Independent Health, Excellus, MVP Health Care, HealthNow and Guardian Life Insurance all use the same database to set rates and drive down physician compensation

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/200...3/bisb0713.htm

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Here's your "free market" at work - United, WellPoint, Aetna, Cigna, GHI/HIP, Capital District Physicians' Health Plan, Independent Health, Excellus, MVP Health Care, HealthNow and Guardian Life Insurance all use the same database to set rates and drive down physician compensation

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/200...3/bisb0713.htm

So there trying to keep their costs down... shamefull !

Anyhow heres a stellar example of the Fed's abilitys.

The Food and Drug Administration—which has struggled to fulfill its mission of regulating food, drugs and other consumer goods that make up nearly a quarter of the U.S. economy—does not have the expertise to forecast its own budget needs, according to congressional investigators.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

So there trying to keep their costs down... shamefull !

You're missing the point. It's not a "free market". It's collusion and an oligopoly. And it's shameful enough for one state's attorney general to step in.

[TDK1044]

Under the genius of the Obama plan, I go from being a hard working individual providing a single tiered medical insurance plan for myself and my family, to being a hard working individual providing a two tiered medical insurance plan...one for myself and my family, and the other for people who would rather spend their money on necessities such as i phones, i pods, DVRs, and other 'must have' devices in their lives.