Who Started World War II?

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

3/4 : Free French was completely illegal, since the official french government signed an armistice with Germany.

So you don't want to be independent? You'd much rather be a puppet to a genocidal government in Berlin that valued itself over it's own people, and cared even less about you?

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

a genocidal government

@ Sailor Steve : You see ? Impossible discussion. This is MAGIC !

[Fahnenbohn]

From the same speech (see post #12) :

"My chief endeavor, however, has been to rid our relations with France of all trace of ill will and render them tolerable for both nations. I once set forth with the utmost clarity Germany's claims in this domain and have never gone back on that declaration. Return of the Saar territory was one demand which I regarded as an indispensable pre-condition of Franco-German understandings. After France herself had found a just solution of this problem, Germany had no further claims against France. No such claim exists any longer and no such claim shall ever be put forward. That is to say, I have refused even to mention the problem of Alsace-Lorraine not because I was forced to keep silent, but because this matter does not constitute a problem which could ever interfere with Franco-German relations. I accepted the decision made in 1919 and refused to consider ever embarking upon war for the sake of a question which, comparatively speaking, is of slight importance for Germany's vital interests, but which is certainly likely to involve every second generation in a deadly war fear. France realized this. It is impossible for any French statesman to get up and declare I have ever made any demands upon France the fulfillment of which would be incompatible with French honor or French interest. It is, however, true that instead of demands I have always expressed to France my desire to bury forever our ancient enmity and bring together these two nations, both of which have such glorious pasts. Among the German people, I have done my utmost to eradicate the idea of everlasting enmity and to inculcate in its place a respect for the great achievements of the French nation and for its history, just as every German soldier has the greatest respect for the feats of the French Army."

[Oberon]

Oh Great, another one of 'these' guys. We sure do pick them up.

Besides, WWII technically started in 1937 between Japan and China.

[Cybermat47]

In my opinion, who started WWII doesn't matter as much as who took the most lives in it - and it's a reasonable assumption that it was the Nazis. 11000000 people are known to have died in the Holocaust alone.

But I have little difficulty in believing that Hitler started WWII. With the annexation of Austria and occupation of Czechoslovakia, it's obvious that he was aggressively expanding German territory.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

11000000 people are known to have died in the Holocaust alone.

That's absolutely wrong, but I don't have the right to talk about this subject on this forum.

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

With the annexation of Austria and occupation of Czechoslovakia, it's obvious that he was aggressively expanding German territory.

By the Trianon and Saint Germain Treaty, the empire of Austria-Hungary is dismembered on behalf of the right of peoples to self-determination. Austria becomes an unsustainable state and requestes unification with Germany from March 1919 (on behalf of the right of peoples to self-determination). But this is denied against all logic.

A totally artificial state is created : Czechoslovakia. It should have been called Czecho-Germania (Czech = 47.2% / German = 23.4% / Slovak = 18.5%). These German minorities, called Sudeten Germans were concentrated in border regions with Germany and Austria and populated by 50% to 90% of Germans.

In March 1938, the annexation of Austria into the Reich is made (Anschluss), in accordance with the will of the immence majority of Austrians. Everywhere scenes of jubilation occur. This causes agitation of the Sudeten Germans who want their return to the motherland too. Facing this agitation, Britain sends Lord Runciman to investigate. He states in its report of October 7, 1938: "I consider that these districts border must be immediately transferred from Czechoslovakia to Germany." Again, this is only fair. The return of the Sudetenland to the Reich is also made in general jubilation.

On March 14, 1939, Slovakia declares its independence. The region of Bohemia and Moravia becomes a German protectorate. The artificial entity created by the victors in 1918 ceases to exist.

-> It's obvious that you don't know the subject at all !

F.

[Tchocky]

Yeah I guess the Sudetendeutsches Freikorps accidentally murdered Czech policemen and the orders they received from the Nazi regime were meant as jokes.

Take it elsewhere.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Yeah I guess the Sudetendeutsches Freikorps accidentally murdered Czech policemen and the orders they received from the Nazi regime were meant as jokes.

I don't know the context, but this is right that there were tensions : you can't force people who don't want to live together to do so !

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

By the Trianon and Saint Germain Treaty, the empire of Austria-Hungary is dismembered on behalf of the right of peoples to self-determination. Austria becomes an unsustainable state and requestes unification with Germany from March 1919 (on behalf of the right of peoples to self-determination). But this is denied against all logic.

A totally artificial state is created : Czechoslovakia. It should have been called Czecho-Germania (Czech = 47.2% / German = 23.4% / Slovak = 18.5%). These German minorities, called Sudeten Germans were concentrated in border regions with Germany and Austria and populated by 50% to 90% of Germans.

In March 1938, the annexation of Austria into the Reich is made (Anschluss), in accordance with the will of the immence majority of Austrians. Everywhere scenes of jubilation occur. This causes agitation of the Sudeten Germans who want their return to the motherland too. Facing this agitation, Britain sends Lord Runciman to investigate. He states in its report of October 7, 1938: "I consider that these districts border must be immediately transferred from Czechoslovakia to Germany." Again, this is only fair. The return of the Sudetenland to the Reich is also made in general jubilation.

On March 14, 1939, Slovakia declares its independence. The region of Bohemia and Moravia becomes a German protectorate. The artificial entity created by the victors in 1918 ceases to exist.

-> It's obvious that you don't know the subject at all !

F.

The German population in Czechoslovakia was, as you say, concentrated nearly entirely in the Sudetenland. Even if we grant that Germany was right in annexing it, why were the remaining Czech territories, in which Germans were a tiny minority, also occupied? Between 1938 and 1939 Czechoslovakia went from having less than 3 million Germans living in a country in which they were not the majority to about 7 million Czechs and other minorities living under direct German occupation (and another 3.5 million living in a German-controlled puppet state). This occupation was, rather typically, far harsher than the conditions the Sudeten Germans were living under beforehand. Territorial expansion was, ideologically and practically, Germany's primary goal both before and during the war; German actions in Czechoslovakia were quite consistent with that.

As for who started World War II (in Europe), I don't see how anyone else could have done it when Germany fired the first shots and initiated nearly all offensive actions for the next several years...

[Sailor Steve]

The thread is now reopened to allow Fahnenbohn to produce his documents. Make comments if you like, but stick to the subject, please.

[Bilge_Rat]

I have a documentary...

[Oberon]

I think, to sum up where we are so far in this thread...

The Treaty of Versailles was very unfair to Germany and did help the Nazi party rise to power, however Hitlers solutions to the loss of German territories also directly contributed to the outbreak of the Second World War.

In short, two wrongs don't make a Reich.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Oberon

In short, two wrongs don't make a Reich.

Reich you are.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Don't mind me I'm just here to watch the show!

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I think, to sum up where we are so far in this thread...

The Treaty of Versailles was very unfair to Germany and did help the Nazi party rise to power, however Hitlers solutions to the loss of German territories also directly contributed to the outbreak of the Second World War.

In short, two wrongs don't make a Reich.

Exactlly.
And if Germany continued the path Stressman charted the treaty would have been nullified by diplomatic means right up until 1940's.
But the painting corporal had to happen so...