Gun Control thread (merged many)

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by August

You misunderstood. When you're done mocking look me up and i'll explain.

OK, I'll buy. Explain away and I promise I won't mock you back.

But first, take into account that our culture simply does not give a thought about guns. We consider them a non issue. One more thing to maintain.

So let's make some points:

-Hunting: European wildlife was hunted 3/4 to extinction and we had 2000 years to do it. Not to mention that we have twice as many people living on a landmass about the same size as the USA and a lot of forrests were cut down to house and feed that population. Therefore, hunting is severely limited and for a good reason. Only if you're a hunter in a ''hunting family'' you're allowed to own a hunting rifle and a hunting licence and even then you're only allowed to shoot a deer or two in a year. Plus, venison is readily available from said families so there's really no need for us to own hunting weapons.

-Defense: Today we have large conscript armies and modern profesional forces (depends on the country) and NATO. Small militias are really artillery and drone fodder.
But when it comes to militia, Yugoslavia had what is really called a well regulated citizen militia. Every citizen was trained to fight and had to attend regular exercises. Weapons were in hidden caches, locations known only to certain individual, JNA (Yugoslav national army) and as soon as the area was overrun people would receive weapons and went to the hills to treat the new enemy as the Germans were treated. The other republics not yet overwhelmed would then mobilise with the 5 million conscripts in reserves and the enemy would soon find himself attacked from the front and the rear.

-Personal defense: crime rate is lower than it has ever been. Burglaries are always when one is away, pickpocketing is something you can't really do anything about it even with a bazooka, we have a competent police force that even if you are robbed at gunpoint, you'll have everything back within a week. Plus most of us believe that the last thing we need is every third person on the street carrying a gun. Especially after happy hour when half the town is drunk. Oh, and all the criminals here work in packs and they will surround you. Shoot one and the two behind you will jump you and then it's game over. Pulling out a gun only means that they'll come home with more booty.

-Fun: €50 is a yearly fee in a shooting shooting gallery, you receive a gun there, maintained and clean. You don't really need a license, you just have to be over 18 or with parents.

-Laws: I can own a gun. I just send the application to the state and receive the license after they check my background and if I have a suitable locker. I just don't feel the need.

-Regime: Slovenia is a western parliamentary democracy. We have the same liberties as you do. Exactly the same liberties. The protest from 2 years ago were not drowned in blood when the police armed with AK-74 started moving down the civilians. No. The police just made a circle around the important buildings and the people were allowed to protest. The water canon was brought in to cool down some vandals abusing the protests for looting and the cops were even cheered by the crowd after they went after the said looters. And the protests worked, the corrupt rulling party was forced to step down and an early election was called.

-History: Yugoslavia was not a semi-Stalinist communist death camp state. It was free society with some limitations and a one party election. But on a personal level people were free to work and thrive and the state provided. People worked, payed taxes, went to Croatia in the summer and to the Alps in the winter. My parents worked half as much to provide for the entire family than today when they only have to provide for themselves.
Austria-Hungary was conservative as an empire can be. On a local level though, the people enjoyed a high level of freedom. They were no longer serfs. They weren't serfs since the 16th century. They were citizens to an empire and subjects to an emperor that didn't really have an interest in oppressing everyone. And that was an empire that was the most conservative right after Russia. I'm not going to even mention pre-WW1 Germany and their reforms we can only hope for today.
Before 16th century, well, that's not relevant. The USA hadn't existed yet. I just know that we weren't allowed guns and no one really had much use for guns. People with guns came by in their thousands every few years and they left a barren land anyway.

-European peasant uprisings: peasants armed with scythes held against feudal armies. But the peasantry was allowed to own scythes after a rebellion and we're still allowed to own scythes today. And axes, and saws, hay forks, shovels and those hooks on a stick we still use to shake apple tree branches. The lords never just burned down a village just because someone owned a gun. Peasants were their income source. And they were also more interested in fighting each other to even enforce laws on the peasantry. If a village owned a cannon, nothing would have been done about it.

-Propaganda: we're not brain washed by the state to think we're not oppressed. Quite opposite. We're all so cynical that we don't even believe the state when they're telling the truth. Sheeples are plentiful but ignored and even shunned from the public life. Guns are never an issue. If someone would want to run on a platform to allow guns for everyone, he'd loose because no one gives a damn.

-Europeans weak: you wish. We've been slaughtering each other long enough for war to be imprinted in our DNA. We're just collectively tired and we prefer to play tourists. Something you can't do in a war zone.

And I have already said: you can keep your 2nd amendment, I don't want it, my life won't be better or worse with a gun in my room. I already have a bayonet, a machete, 3 swiss pocket knives, one santoku knife, a small butcher knife set, a bow with 5 carbon arrows, 2 airguns, one airsoft G-36 replica, and a kilogram of home made amonium nitrate.

Originally Posted by Betonov

 

OK, I'll buy. Explain away and I promise I won't mock you back.

But first, take into account that our culture simply does not give a thought about guns. We consider them a non issue. One more thing to maintain.

So let's make some points:

-Hunting: European wildlife was hunted 3/4 to extinction and we had 2000 years to do it. Not to mention that we have twice as many people living on a landmass about the same size as the USA and a lot of forrests were cut down to house and feed that population. Therefore, hunting is severely limited and for a good reason. Only if you're a hunter in a ''hunting family'' you're allowed to own a hunting rifle and a hunting licence and even then you're only allowed to shoot a deer or two in a year. Plus, venison is readily available from said families so there's really no need for us to own hunting weapons.

-Defense: Today we have large conscript armies and modern profesional forces (depends on the country) and NATO. Small militias are really artillery and drone fodder.
But when it comes to militia, Yugoslavia had what is really called a well regulated citizen militia. Every citizen was trained to fight and had to attend regular exercises. Weapons were in hidden caches, locations known only to certain individual, JNA (Yugoslav national army) and as soon as the area was overrun people would receive weapons and went to the hills to treat the new enemy as the Germans were treated. The other republics not yet overwhelmed would then mobilise with the 5 million conscripts in reserves and the enemy would soon find himself attacked from the front and the rear.

-Personal defense: crime rate is lower than it has ever been. Burglaries are always when one is away, pickpocketing is something you can't really do anything about it even with a bazooka, we have a competent police force that even if you are robbed at gunpoint, you'll have everything back within a week. Plus most of us believe that the last thing we need is every third person on the street carrying a gun. Especially after happy hour when half the town is drunk. Oh, and all the criminals here work in packs and they will surround you. Shoot one and the two behind you will jump you and then it's game over. Pulling out a gun only means that they'll come home with more booty.

-Fun: €50 is a yearly fee in a shooting shooting gallery, you receive a gun there, maintained and clean. You don't really need a license, you just have to be over 18 or with parents.

-Laws: I can own a gun. I just send the application to the state and receive the license after they check my background and if I have a suitable locker. I just don't feel the need.

-Regime: Slovenia is a western parliamentary democracy. We have the same liberties as you do. Exactly the same liberties. The protest from 2 years ago were not drowned in blood when the police armed with AK-74 started moving down the civilians. No. The police just made a circle around the important buildings and the people were allowed to protest. The water canon was brought in to cool down some vandals abusing the protests for looting and the cops were even cheered by the crowd after they went after the said looters. And the protests worked, the corrupt rulling party was forced to step down and an early election was called.

-History: Yugoslavia was not a semi-Stalinist communist death camp state. It was free society with some limitations and a one party election. But on a personal level people were free to work and thrive and the state provided. People worked, payed taxes, went to Croatia in the summer and to the Alps in the winter. My parents worked half as much to provide for the entire family than today when they only have to provide for themselves.
Austria-Hungary was conservative as an empire can be. On a local level though, the people enjoyed a high level of freedom. They were no longer serfs. They weren't serfs since the 16th century. They were citizens to an empire and subjects to an emperor that didn't really have an interest in oppressing everyone. And that was an empire that was the most conservative right after Russia. I'm not going to even mention pre-WW1 Germany and their reforms we can only hope for today.
Before 16th century, well, that's not relevant. The USA hadn't existed yet. I just know that we weren't allowed guns and no one really had much use for guns. People with guns came by in their thousands every few years and they left a barren land anyway.

-European peasant uprisings: peasants armed with scythes held against feudal armies. But the peasantry was allowed to own scythes after a rebellion and we're still allowed to own scythes today. And axes, and saws, hay forks, shovels and those hooks on a stick we still use to shake apple tree branches. The lords never just burned down a village just because someone owned a gun. Peasants were their income source. And they were also more interested in fighting each other to even enforce laws on the peasantry. If a village owned a cannon, nothing would have been done about it.

-Propaganda: we're not brain washed by the state to think we're not oppressed. Quite opposite. We're all so cynical that we don't even believe the state when they're telling the truth. Sheeples are plentiful but ignored and even shunned from the public life. Guns are never an issue. If someone would want to run on a platform to allow guns for everyone, he'd loose because no one gives a damn.

-Europeans weak: you wish. We've been slaughtering each other long enough for war to be imprinted in our DNA. We're just collectively tired and we prefer to play tourists. Something you can't do in a war zone.

And I have already said: you can keep your 2nd amendment, I don't want it, my life won't be better or worse with a gun in my room. I already have a bayonet, a machete, 3 swiss pocket knives, one santoku knife, a small butcher knife set, a bow with 5 carbon arrows, 2 airguns, one airsoft G-36 replica, and a kilogram of home made amonium nitrate.

Quite soon for the post of the year but... damn!

[Dowly]

[Oberon]

I think that about sums it up really.

By the way Betonov, the SIS called, they'll be around in the morning about that ammonium nitrate...

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Oberon

By the way Betonov, the SIS called, they'll be around in the morning about that ammonium nitrate...

That's why we need to start that minecraft server, so I can tell them I use it for rare earth extraction

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Betonov

That's why we need to start that minecraft server, so I can tell them I use it for rare earth extraction

Reminds me of Jeremy Clarksons idea of ploughing...with dynamite.

[Jeff-Groves]

Originally Posted by Oberon

By the way Betonov, the SIS called, they'll be around in the morning about that stuff...

I was thinking the same thing but I'd probably trip DHS watched words list!

[August]

Originally Posted by Betonov

OK, I'll buy. Explain away and I promise I won't mock you back.

But first, take into account that our culture simply does not give a thought about guns. We consider them a non issue. One more thing to maintain.

So let's make some points:

...bla bla, bla

Have you really calmed down Betonov? Doesn't look like it to me. You still seem very defensive so if you and those cackling hyenas are just going to continue braying then i'll pass.

For what it's worth it not not just guns that i'm talking about here, it's weapons of all types.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by Betonov

But first, take into account that our culture simply does not give a thought about guns. We consider them a non issue. One more thing to maintain.

So let's make some points:

Actually - I think I will, thank you. This will be fun....

Regime: Slovenia is a western parliamentary democracy. We have the same liberties as you do. Exactly the same liberties.

Well, based on the following quotes of yours, you are simply incorrect....

Hunting: European wildlife was hunted 3/4 to extinction and we had 2000 years to do it. Not to mention that we have twice as many people living on a landmass about the same size as the USA and a lot of forrests were cut down to house and feed that population. Therefore, hunting is severely limited and for a good reason. Only if you're a hunter in a ''hunting family'' you're allowed to own a hunting rifle and a hunting licence and even then you're only allowed to shoot a deer or two in a year.

While there are regional limits to how much one can shoot, hunting itself - along with the ownership of a hunting rifle, is not "severely limited" or based on if your a "hunting family" - whatever that is. Every person without a mental instability or felony conviction can generally own a firearm - including a hunting rifle. A hunting permit is available to anyone for a minor (under $15 in NC for example) fee - no other qualifications necessary. So - was your claim of "exactly the same liberties" a knowledgeable bold face lie, or simply a statement of ignorance?

-Defense: Today we have large conscript armies and modern profesional forces (depends on the country) and NATO. Small militias are really artillery and drone fodder.

I have 2 points - but the second one can wait a moment. The first - so militias (non-official, non-military fighting forces) like the civilized world has faced for the last decade+ in places like Iraq/Afghanistan/Syria and such are merely artillery and drone fodder.... So how come they haven't lost yet then?????

But when it comes to militia, Yugoslavia had what is really called a well regulated citizen militia.

Point #2 now: So Yugoslavia has - in your terms, plenty of artillery and drone fodder. How nice...

Every citizen was trained to fight and had to attend regular exercises. Weapons were in hidden caches, locations known only to certain individual, JNA (Yugoslav national army) and as soon as the area was overrun people would receive weapons and went to the hills to treat the new enemy as the Germans were treated.

How are they going to do that after being blown to smithereens by that artillery and the drones?

The other republics not yet overwhelmed would then mobilise with the 5 million conscripts in reserves and the enemy would soon find himself attacked from the front and the rear.

Uhm - more fodder to the rescue? What's the plan - overrun them once they run out of ammo? Remember - YOU are the one that said a citizen militia would be fodder against modern weaponry......

Personal defense: crime rate is lower than it has ever been.

Not sure where you come by that. Assuming you are in fact from Slovenia. According to NationMaster.com, 64.29% of your fellow countrymen believe that crime has increased in the last 3 years. Violent crime in 2014 you are ranked 84th out of 93. The last available murder rates (2010) has you 80th out of 86.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-...Slovenia/Crime

Burglaries are always when one is away

Because when your home - its not burglary - its a home invasion.

pickpocketing is something you can't really do anything about it even with a bazooka

Sure you can - unless you are keeping that bazooka in your pocket. Though most people would suggest a less "explosive" response to such a crime.

we have a competent police force that even if you are robbed at gunpoint, you'll have everything back within a week.

So your saying every robbery that happens will be solved within a week - with a return of the stolen goods? Source that claim for me, will ya?

Plus most of us believe that the last thing we need is every third person on the street carrying a gun.

But - I thought:

But first, take into account that our culture simply does not give a thought about guns.

Which is it?

Especially after happy hour when half the town is drunk.

So what you are saying is half your town is too irresponsible in their control of their liquor to be safe with firearms - so you don't want them to have guns. Are they somehow too irresponsible for guns - but responsible enough to drive cars - or carry knives? Both are legal but deadly, you know...

Oh, and all the criminals here work in packs and they will surround you. Shoot one and the two behind you will jump you and then it's game over.

Wait - but you have:

we have a competent police force

How can "packs of criminals" exist if this is the case?

Pulling out a gun only means that they'll come home with more booty.

I am confused - because that is only booty that they get to have for like ... a week or less, right? Because your police always return the stolen goods within that timeframe..

Question: With police that good - even assuming a pack of criminals COULD organize and exist within that society - what would be the use of crime if they know they are going to get caught within a week??? How does that work?

Makes no sense to ever be a criminal in that society - yet you admit they exist. Something doesn't pass the smell test here.......

Laws: I can own a gun. I just send the application to the state and receive the license after they check my background and if I have a suitable locker.

What is a "suitable locker"? No such requirement in the US - another significant difference where our liberties differ. Just so you are ... better informed....

History: It was free society with some limitations and a one party election.

When you only can vote for one party - you don't have a free society. Freedom requires CHOICE - therefore you had no free society.

Propaganda: we're not brain washed by the state to think we're not oppressed. Quite opposite. We're all so cynical that we don't even believe the state when they're telling the truth.

Is that before or after you buy into the "the police here are so good they solve every robbery in a week" line????

Sheeples are plentiful

Obviously...

If someone would want to run on a platform to allow guns for everyone, he'd loose because no one gives a damn.

Well you must - to have written such a lengthy farce so devoid of logic.

Europeans weak: you wish. We've been slaughtering each other long enough for war to be imprinted in our DNA. We're just collectively tired and we prefer to play tourists. Something you can't do in a war zone.

So perhaps you can explain.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...e#21st_century

or perhaps you prefer this line of thinking...

It isn't that you want to play tourist. You do not want to confront the threat of things like global islam. Europe chooses to do little about such threats - even when it bombs and beheads in your own countries.... That isn't playing tourist, that is playing "victim" - and to many in the US - choosing to be a victim makes you look weak.

And I have already said: you can keep your 2nd amendment, I don't want it, my life won't be better or worse with a gun in my room.

2A doesn't require people to own guns - it gives them CHOICE. Remember we already covered that - Choice is integral to a free society...

I already have a bayonet, a machete, 3 swiss pocket knives, one santoku knife, a small butcher knife set, a bow with 5 carbon arrows, 2 airguns, one airsoft G-36 replica, and a kilogram of home made amonium nitrate.

Good for you. Glad you don't think you need a gun. Hope you can notch an arrow, aim and fire faster than a bad guy with a gun can pull a trigger. Your choice - oh wait - not really, huh. But you are right about one thing - it would be "just one more thing to maintain" for you.

When your ready to speak with reason and logic instead of making provably false claims and when your ready to stop contradicting yourself - then MAYBE you will actually be able to have a reasonable discussion on the matter.

[Betonov]

August, I am buyin' but you ain't sellin'



CaptainHaplo, at least one American read the entire thing. Perhaps Steve has, he is a moderator. Where do I begin though.

Point #2 now: So Yugoslavia has - in your terms, plenty of artillery and drone fodder. How nice...

First, Yugoslavia doesn't have, Yugoslavia HAD. Yugoslavia ceased to exist in 1991 all but name. Even Serbia dropped that name in 2003 so Yugoslavia HAD plenty of drone fodder and artillery fodder, which was supported by tanks, artillery and jet planes of all shapes and sizes. Because Yugoslavia had a large conscription based standing army with millions in reserve, just like the US had until 1973. But saying the US army was artillery fodder would bring in a tirade from August and you.
And since we are nitpicking, when Yugoslavia still existed, drones were nothing but a novelty on proving grounds. A Yugoslav soldier could not have been drone fodder.

Not sure where you come by that. Assuming you are in fact from Slovenia. According to NationMaster.com, 64.29% of your fellow countrymen believe that crime has increased in the last 3 years. Violent crime in 2014 you are ranked 84th out of 93. The last available murder rates (2010) has you 80th out of 86.

We also believe we will go bankrupt next year. Like we did last year. And in 2012. And in 2011. We're a pessimist nation. With an amateur sensationalist media that sells every pickpocketing like the robbery of the century.
And even if crime did increase, from almost nothing to what, a little above almost nothing ??? And bar brawls are considered a violent crime but there's a difference between watching two drunks fight or being a collateral in a mob shootout.

And when it comes to polls what people believe, as an American, please don't...
http://time.com/7809/1-in-4-american...-orbits-earth/
(I dislike polls, they only show what the poller wants them to show, so if you want to diss my link, it automatically disses your poll)

Because when your home - its not burglary - its a home invasion.

Yeah, and we had one in 10 years. And even then it was personal grievances. And the police/army/parliamentary death squads never invade homes here, like August believes in his EuromeansStalinistcommiepolicestate dreams. They make a polite knock with a warrant. How many incidents we had when the special police force broke down a door on a phone tip ?? None. How about the US ????

So what you are saying is half your town is too irresponsible in their control of their liquor to be safe with firearms - so you don't want them to have guns. Are they somehow too irresponsible for guns - but responsible enough to drive cars - or carry knives? Both are legal but deadly, you know...

Do you actually think that we don't allow drunks weapons but we allow them to drive drunk ???
Cars and knives are legal when you're sober. And half my town is irresponsible enough in control of their liquor but that has nothing to do with the state laws.

How can "packs of criminals" exist if this is the case?

Do criminals in the US carry a sign around their neck saying ''I'm a criminal'' and confront you in front of a cop ?? Or maybe you have a law that forbids people to gather in public in groups more than 3 ?? How oppressive.
People go out in groups, honest or criminals. Packs of criminals don't have signs around their necks, policemen are not allowed to arrest a group of people just because they look suspicious, and the pack never attacks in plain sight. Sometimes you're dumb enough to find yourself in an alley far from any cop and you get mugged. Happens in Switzerland, happens in Somalia.
But as you said:

Violent crime in 2014 you are ranked 84th out of 93. The last available murder rates (2010) has you 80th out of 86.

And then Tribes added

80th is better than 14th.

It means that our police force is sooooooooo much more efficient than your police force, since we're at the bottom of that list and you're at the top.

I am confused - because that is only booty that they get to have for like ... a week or less, right? Because your police always return the stolen goods within that timeframe..

If you don't shot one, you get to the police station with a black eye and you get the wallet back in a week.
If you shoot one and the rest jump you, they will kill you. And you're family get's the wallet back.

What is a "suitable locker"? No such requirement in the US - another significant difference where our liberties differ. Just so you are ... better informed....

A locker a child cannot open and accidentally kills himself. You can keep that liberty, I prefer the life of my child.

When you only can vote for one party - you don't have a free society. Freedom requires CHOICE - therefore you had no free society.

You know that was in Yugoslavia, the state that does no longer exist ??
So it was only a 95% free society. More than enough to live a pleasant, healthy, safe life for you and your family.

Is that before or after you buy into the "the police here are so good they solve every robbery in a week" line????

Can't see the connection but:
We trust the police because the cops actually work with the people and they respond when called. The cop is the help on the street, like the firefighter and paramedic. Not the statesman.

So perhaps you can explain.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...e#21st_century

Because unrest in Kosovo is actually a total war like the one in 1939-1945

and

• 2008 Russia–Georgia war

You need a new atlas. You still see Yugoslavia and Georgia as Europe.
(hint, the USSR broke apart and there's only one Germany)

It isn't that you want to play tourist. You do not want to confront the threat of things like global islam. Europe chooses to do little about such threats - even when it bombs and beheads in your own countries.... That isn't playing tourist, that is playing "victim" - and to many in the US - choosing to be a victim makes you look weak.

Not going to war makes us look prudent, smart and civilized. Especially when we choose not to go to war in the name of anti-terorism against a country that had nothing to do with terorism. It's only crime against the US was sitting on an ocean of oil.
And when it comes to Afganistan, where terrorists actually are:


My god, will you look at all those European countries. I can even see Slovenia in there. (hint: Slovenia and Slovakia are two different countries)

2A doesn't require people to own guns - it gives them CHOICE. Remember we already covered that - Choice is integral to a free society...

I know, I have that choice. I choose not to own a gun. Like I said and you ignored: I can own a gun after I register for a license

Good for you. Glad you don't think you need a gun. Hope you can notch an arrow, aim and fire faster than a bad guy with a gun can pull a trigger. Your choice - oh wait - not really, huh. But you are right about one thing - it would be "just one more thing to maintain" for you.

I don't live in the US. I live in a safe AND free country.

When your ready to speak with reason and logic instead of making provably false claims and when your ready to stop contradicting yourself - then MAYBE you will actually be able to have a reasonable discussion on the matter.

One Englishman (wikipedia on two legs), one Finn (levelheaded) and one Irishman (a walking legal library) already agree with me.
If two Americans that are known for their lack of knowledge about European geo-political situation and history think I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm not going to loose sleep over it. Like some Americans thinking if there's a SWAT team at their door with a wrong lead.


And remember kids, Atlases should be updated every couple of years. Pre-1991 are seriously out of date.

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Come on betonov hit him on the details which are obviously absolute bollox.
There is no shortage.

I have a weight problem, my life won't last that long.

But his latest episode does raise another issue.
He maintains that you are oppressed and not free because you have firearm regulations infringing on your liberty, whereas he is free and has an amendment saying he shall have no infringements.
Since America as a nation has so many more regulations covering firearms than your country does in spite of his bit of paper doesn't that suggest that by his measure of liberty he is far more oppressed and constrained under tyranny than you are?

We don't actually have that much regulation. It's license yes, no license no. Just like with a car.

[Betonov]

So you're telling me

I've been defending a country with gun regulations against a country with gun regulations

[Rockstar]

Lets get this over with, everyone rally around their talking points shall we?

A) If only France had stricter gun regulations.

B) If only everyone in France had an Ak47 and a rocket launcher.


fixed

[Oberon]

What about a rock and roll launcher?

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Betonov

One Englishman (wikipedia on two legs), one Finn (levelheaded) and one Irishman (a walking legal library) already agree with me.

Who are you calling levelheaded?!