Creationist Explains How Humans Could Have Hunted The Tyrannosaurus Rex

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by u crank

I would whole heartedly agree with what you are saying. Completely. It is the risk of freedom of expression and to think other wise would be foolish.

But would you have it any other way? I would rather be free to say what I wish than be forbidden from saying it.

I'm not saying that I would have it any other way, I'm simply saying that when "non-believers" talk about not wanting special exemptions for religious speech, this is often the kind of thing they're talking about: people who not only want the freedom to express their religious beliefs, but the freedom to be exempt from an open expression of disagreement with those beliefs, or from the fairly predictable consequences of stating something as a universal truth that simply cannot be backed up by anything other than "because I believe it."

Someone (may have been you) mentioned how it would feel for an atheist to not have the freedom to say out loud in public that he is an atheist. Well, probably it would feel lousy, and for much of western history it could have had very dire consequences indeed and in some places still does -but as Skybird already noted most atheists don't make a point of publicly announcing their disbelief on a regular basis, in the average social interaction it typically only happens in response to someone else bringing the subject up for discussion. Many times in my own experience it does not happen at all even in those circumstances, because depending on the company the non-believer may well decide that it's just not worth the trouble it would cause if they didn't keep their mouths shut. If they do not keep their mouths shut, however, they can't be singled out as the cause of the trouble just for taking part in the discussion.

In the realm of science it's even trickier, because science has definable standards. "I believe in God" vs. "I don't believe in God" is one thing and everyone may agree to disagree and part friends. But "I believe the Bible and have the science to back it up" is another thing entirely, if they can't back it up according to the standards that apply to scientific investigation they are not exempt from criticism because religious belief is also involved. But for some of those people, attacking the 'science' is treated as an attack on their religion - which it very well may be, but IMO by putting their religion on the same battlefield with questionable science to stand against a common foe they pretty much asked for it. You know what I'm sayin'? It's like suddenly shoving a toddler onto the front lines of a raging conflict and then screaming "Baby killer!" at your enemy when the kid takes a bullet.

The thing is - most atheists and agnostics have no need or desire to proclaim their doubt and disbelief without provocation because they have no interest in converting anyone else to it, as long as religious belief disguised as science or law or something else of a secular nature is not being forced on them by others. In contrast to that, for many religious people - and in the US, at least, for many Christians in particular - proselytizing for their beliefs is so built into the system as something that must be done that doing it is sometimes confused with just having those beliefs.

And that's the problem. If someone wants to believe every last word of the Bible is literal truth, hey, whatever. When they want to PROVE that it is with questionable science as a justification for teaching it in science class and someone finds that objectionable on scientific grounds, when they want to stop me on the street to share their faith and I refuse to stop what I'm doing and listen to their testimony, when they want to proclaim that their beliefs are universal truths and other people state their disagreement or ask for verifiable evidence that this is so - they are not "victims" of anything. But some of them want to be treated as such.

I'm NOT saying that this is going on in this thread, because to be honest I haven't read every page and every post. I'm just saying that this is what I see in my own experience.