Creationist Explains How Humans Could Have Hunted The Tyrannosaurus Rex

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by u crank

Religion in itself is not the end of "free speech, free opinion, freedom in general."

You just advocated for the first steps towards it, and spend a whole posting to deny that. All what you implied and posted, says "religious people's practice first and unlimited, all others have to live with it and have to step back where they fell affected".

That is religious tyranny, plain and simple. Of course you will continue to claim the opposite you are meaning/saying/thinking, I know I know. But you contradict yourself.

I'm not caring for the parties you tthrow in your household. But when the noise becomes such that me and nweighbvours cannot sleep, cannot live our own life without needing to realise your party day in day out, cannot play pour own TVs and radios without simultaneously participating in your show, then I come over and kick you around until you stop messing up our lives becasue you want to have party "your style".

It may be your house. Your house and property has borders beyond which you have no right to annoy people. I do not care for the colour on the walls in other people's houses, nor do I usually care for what the believe in, or not, and why, as long as they do not damage other humans (including their children). But when people run around and tell everybody day in day out that the colour of their walls is so wonderful and why one does not do it like them, too, and that public buildings should be painted like that, too, then it starts to become a problem for everybody else.

Keep thy religion to thyself. There it must not concern anybody else, there you can believe as often and strong and long as you want, nobody will care. And that is how it should be, and that is how you are free and the others as well. Where your religion claims it must be aggressively spread and offensively preached, it becomes an aggressor and invader. And that is where tolerance ends and the boots start kicking religious butts - in self-defense. We must not want our freedom from religion sacrificed for your religion. Build a club house, have a chart at the entrance inviting people to come in and check you out, if that is what you want. That'S the non-invasive, civil, polite way to do it. Walking from door to door in start preaching and missionising, already illustrates the basic aggressive attitude behind that religion that wants to claim more and more for itself. First the privacy of others. Than laws and rights. Then others freedoms. Then the school'S curriculum. Finally the policy of the state.

I'm even willing to call to arms to prevent that happening once again, if needed.

[Skybird]

Neon,

a theory somebody disagrees with must be proven wrong by this somebody only if it is a qualified theory by scientific standards indeed. If it is no theory but just hear-say or imagination or arbitrary claim put into the world by somebody, then the burden of evidence is not on the one saying that it is drivel, but the one claiming in the first that this drivel is true and a "theory". You put something into the world nobody every has heard of or has seen and witnessed - you show your claim that it is out there is true. Not the other has to prove that you are telling nonsense. The burden of proof is on YOU. When I claim Obama is a Martian, I have to prove it - you must not disprove me. When I claim the Earth'S core is hollow, and in reality the grass is blue and the sky is green and there are intelligent invisible marshmallows flying over the summer meadow, then I have to prove my claims to be true - nobody has to take it upon him to disprove me. And when I say there is a big cosmic superman floating over the water, then I have to prove that claim to be true - I have no right to expect to be taken for real as long as nobody has disproven my claims. All these examples are no hypothesis I set up - they are claims. Speculations. Products of my fantastic, chaotic imagination, basing on nothing. Jules Verne based on more ground than I do here. So, the described brilliant outlets of my sparkling intellect are no hypothesis. And certainly no theories.

Claiming God exists, is no theory. The burden of evidence is on those claiming he does exist.

At best you can make "God exists" a hypothesis to work with. And that is what Dawkins did. He then set a second, alternative hypothesis, "God exists" not, and compared the probabilities for both being true by using several different perspectives and approaches on things.

I would not even go so far to say "God exists" is a hypothesis. Even formulation a hypothesis - the pre-stage of a theory that so far has not even seen the very first stage of evaluation and testing - needs something causal justifying it. Often that is the observing of a natural phenomenon, or an event. You then, without having any further information, think and say "could it be that what I have seen is because of this and that causal link/factor?" And then you start to verify or falsify your first guess. Sometimes, this leads to evidence hardening the hypothesis, and you then formulate a theory. Sometimes you need to alter the hypothesis first. Sometimes you just have to kick it into the garbage bin. There is a condition for formulating hypothesis, obviously. They must be, like theories, of such a kind that you can work on them to prove or disprove them, even if the work is far-reaching and needs insights from mother branches and is a long-termed project. Physics and astronomy come to mind. A hypothesis or theory not allowing that, is speculation, is claim. And claiming you can just everything, infinitely, endlessly, since you must never justify it by reason, logic, causal work, or anything.

As far as I am concerned, "God exists" is not even a hypothesis, and Dawkins used it as that probably only for pragmatic purposes on behalf of the design of his book's structure, he wanted to give it a reason-based approach, and for that some basis of a minimum standard was necessary. 'To me, the claim is less than a hypothesis - it is a speculation. Imaginative, wild, unfounded, and for its chance of actually being true completely depending on random chance. "It'S not a god, its flying pink elephants on Ganymed" already is better than that, because actually you can fly to Ganymed and check the place for pink flying elephants. Already a hypothesis in science must fulfill basic criterions to be seen as a hypothesis. Amongst that is that, like a theory, it can be tested. A hypothesis gets pragmatically formulated to have a theoretic construct one can work with and work on. That'S why in German the talk often is of "Arbeitshypothese" (working hypothesis). Its the more precise full name of "hypothesis".

Dawkins said it himself, one of logic's dilemmas is that the nonexistence of something cannot be proven with logical means. Its like you also cannot do divisions by zero. That'S why he said you cannot say God does not exist, and so he says: God most likely does not exist. The probability is such that I think it just does not justify to take the possibility for real.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I'm even willing to call to arms to prevent that happening once again, if needed.

As if any army ever in the history of man would have you.

Keep thy religion to thyself.

Freedom of religion does not mean to hide it from your sight. Either be a part of society or leave it.

[HundertzehnGustav]

it is one thing to stand on the corner holding books and looking like a Bum (Jehovah's whitnesses)
It is another thing to shove religion in my face by ringing at my doorbell or sounding the churchbells that resound all over the goddamned valley.
(yes, goddamned )

Its not unreligious people that need to leave the public and create nuisance.
unreligious people do not do, preach, propagate religion. we aint makin no fuss, aint nobody got time for dat.

me, as an unreligious person, i just want religion gone from my life, from the public, from the power.
Then i will maybe be able to respect it, this new, powerless, uninvasive religion, and even accept it to a certain degree.

...which is what i percieve skybird to strive for, too.

[HundertzehnGustav]

and yes... if it were to come down to a war between religion and no religion, i would muster up too.
should be fun.

[August]

Originally Posted by HundertzehnGustav

and yes... if it were to come down to a war between religion and no religion, i would muster up too.
should be fun.

Luckily folks like you and Skybird are in the minority. I think the armies of religion would make short work of you.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by HundertzehnGustav

it is one thing to stand on the corner holding books and looking like a Bum (Jehovah's whitnesses)

Bums? Here they are actually dressed better than...well...bums. Thye wear black pants, white shirts and black ties.

It is another thing to shove religion in my face by ringing at my doorbell or sounding the churchbells that resound all over the goddamned valley.
(yes, goddamned )

It's not unlike a commission-based vacuum cleaner salesman

Its not unreligious people that need to leave the public and create nuisance.

Aww you poor poor unreligious people, who can't defend themselves.

me, as an unreligious person, i just want religion gone from my life, from the public, from the power.

Ain't never ever gonna happen.

Then i will maybe be able to respect it, this new, powerless, uninvasive religion, and even accept it to a certain degree.

And herein is the hypocritical part. You want all religion gone from your life, totally.
But then how can you respect something which you don't know?

[HundertzehnGustav]

okay okay, then let me rephrase that:

Just stop the bellringing, the "Christian" Democratic party (lol), the invites to church in my mailbox, the voodo master offering me to connect with my lost ones for a fee..., the selling of Religion and spritualities of all sorts.

But you may at the same time be right...
i do not care for religion, and therefor probably have no wish to gain respect for it. As of today, i can only shake my head over it, and currently can not respect religion much, no.


But i could start to respect the people that discuss their religious beliefs in the small circle. Discussing in a way i cross them, at the bus stop, or overhearing a conversation... that would be okay. religion on a personal, private level, i can accept that. They are free to believe. And believing is all right.

Respect for them keeping their religion more or less private, instead of using its banner for all sorts of things.

Accepting people that are different from me, without getting in my face all the time about said difference on the believer-nonbeliever subject.

On the "masses" subject...
True.

One of the reasons i currently dispise Religion.
It clouds the mind of 90% of Earths population because of the way religion is lived. "my god has bigger balls than your god"


Maybe no nneed to wage a awar against all religions.
Maybe all i need to do is set up the religions against each other, and let them kill each other mutually. They might be dim enough to do that.

a good way to fight Overpopulation of this planet.

[August]

Originally Posted by HundertzehnGustav

Maybe all i need to do is set up the religions against each other, and let them kill each other mutually. They might be dim enough to do that.

a good way to fight Overpopulation of this planet.

Quoted for future prosecution.

[Betonov]

Just put the religius leaders in the arena and let them duke it out.

I think the faithfull and nonbelievers wont have trouble living with one and another after that

[Feuer Frei!]

I've noticed a lot of strong anti-believer remarks here. Seems to me to be more non-believers than believers here. Maybe the believers know better than to enter here

Seems to me that some of you are also stereotyping us believers into 1 basket and saying that: 'those dam pesky believers who can't keep their beliefs to themselves and accost me at my home or in the street or at the drug store...and that you religious people should keep your religion to yourselves, behind closed doors, like some plague.

Not all of us believers are accosting you at your door, or accost you whilst doing your weekly dishwashing detergent shopping, or thrusting God's words into your ears while you are cleaning the bugs off your bumper bar.
No siree, for example, i'm a believer, i believe in God the almighty. But that doesn't mean to say that i go and plan to visit all you non believers here in this thread one by one to make you believe in God.
Nope. nor does my father, who also believes.
So, let's just be careful about lumping all us believers into the one basket of: 'pesky, annoying bible bashers' who won't leave you alone to your non-believing.

[Armistead]

I got involved in fundamentalism at about age 14, not that I really intended to do so, a cute girl invited me. It was a revival with a mountain preacher screaming his lungs out about the tortures of hell. I wasn't so much concerned about finding God then as I was about being tortured, so I went and got saved. I spent 9 years in that church.

Certainly, there were some good aspects, but it wasn't worth the emotional trauma. I can remember much conflict over science in school and what the church thought. In church we're told the earth was 6000 years old and that evolution was false.

Course the teens accepted what the church taught. I walked around for years waiting for God to strike me dead over a host of sins, natural things like masturbation. We were taught that mere sexual thoughts were adultery and that if we willfully did it, we probably weren't saved. About 19, I was teaching Sunday School, later became the youth pastor. I became very frustrated at every revival, seems the entire youth would get saved again. I realized they were suffering and dealing with the same emotional trauma I was. It became more serious to me when a 17 year old young man took his life over the fact he couldn't stop masturbating.
I know for a fact that the majority of fundy kids went wild when they reached adulthood.

It was when I went to bible college that I learned I wasn't to take everything literal. The more I studied, the more I questioned, even though the motto of our church was "Don't question God." I later did mission work in Africa and Borneo, saw more suffering than could be imagined. I became very skeptical, my views changed somewhat, but I didn't quit believing, but I dropped out of church.

Over the years, I spend 1000's of hours of sincere study trying to figure out God, what religion was right with an open mind and a sincere heart. If God existed, I couldn't figure him out. Later I recall talking to a pastor who told me my unbelief was "I got away from the bible". Seems my options were closing my mind, my heart and my logic to accept a version of God or remain skeptical. I chose to remain skeptical, hoping that if God exist, he would prefer an honest sincere skeptic over a dishonest close minded believer.

I don't trust any religion regarding the education of my children, because it starts with them closing their minds to critical thinking, resulting in a mind that can be easily controlled.

I would love to KNOW God exist, but I cannot know. It doesn't mean I don't think it possible, I just don't know. I do know I became a more moral person without religion, more loving and more concerned for my fellow man.

[HundertzehnGustav]

Ih that case, you are out of luck...


if
*there are believers propagating their beliefs (churchbells to doorbels, any channel, any media)
coupled with
* there are so many more believers than nonbelievers

then the believers appear to be an overwhelming mass to me, and appear as a threat to my quiet and religionfree life (void of any religion, and almost void of spirituality)

leading to a stereotype - maybe.
Guilty me?

[August]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

So, let's just be careful about lumping all us believers into the one basket of: 'pesky, annoying bible bashers' who won't leave you alone to your non-believing.

There is no place for you or me in Skybird and HundertzehnGustav's brave new world.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by HundertzehnGustav

One of the reasons i currently dispise Religion.
It clouds the mind of 90% of Earths population because of the way religion is lived. "my god has bigger balls than your god"

But why do you care about something you don't care about?

Maybe all i need to do is set up the religions against each other, and let them kill each other mutually.

It's been done for you. Muslims and Christians are looking at you, for example.