Catholic Transparency...

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

"Do not have any other gods before me"

OR

"Do not make a carving-a graven image of anything that is in heaven"

Exactly. In other words, don't make your own god of your choosing. And by cherry picking what tenets of Christianity you follow, you are doing just that; making a god in you own image. What you have then is your own brand of spirituality, which is just fine. However, you can't call it Christianity no more than you could call it Shintoism because you reject it's teachings.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Exactly. In other words, don't make your own god of your choosing. And by cherry picking what tenets of Christianity you follow, you are doing just that; making a god in you own image. What you have then is your own brand of spirituality, which is just fine. However, you can't call it Christianity no more than you could call it Shintoism because you reject it's teachings.

But isn't that also what the Catholic Church is doing? They've constructed the image of a God who critically punishes Homosexuality, and wants to stop abortions and voluntary euthanasia. The last 2 are terrible, terrible things, but in some cases are the best thing to do.

Also, the Catholic church was the only church that existed in Europe until Luther, so all Christian denominations stem from that.

And I don't see how I'm straying from either of those 2nd commandments. I'm only worshipping the God that is referred to in Christian texts, and I'm not carving images of him.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

But isn't that also what the Catholic Church is doing? They've constructed the image of a God who critically punishes Homosexuality, and wants to stop abortions and voluntary euthanasia. The last 2 are terrible, terrible things, but in some cases are the best thing to do.

Originally Posted by Leviticus 18:22 (KJV)

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination

Originally Posted by Leviticus 20:13 (KJV)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Originally Posted by Romans 1:26-27 (KJV)

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (KJV)

Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers, none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God

Also, the Catholic church was the only church that existed in Europe until Luther, so all Christian denominations stem from that.

Because they all follow the same basic tenets, which you reject.

And I don't see how I'm straying from either of those 2nd commandments. I'm only worshipping the God that is referred to in Christian texts, and I'm not carving images of him.

You are worshiping a god that does not hold to the tenets of Christianity. As such, you are worshiping what may be a beautiful deity, but it isn't a Christian one. That violates the Second Commandment. Idols are not always physical.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

You are worshiping a god that does not hold to the tenets of Christianity.

You do realise that 70% of 'Christians' in my country actually reject those homophobic teachings as well, right? And I do have the right of self determination as well. How about I regard myself as Christian, but you regard me as Agnostic. That way we don't have to continue this back and forth argument that's eating up your time.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

You do realise that 70% of 'Christians' in my country actually reject those homophobic teachings as well, right? And I do have the right of self determination as well. How about I regard myself as Christian, but you regard me as Agnostic. That way we don't have to continue this back and forth argument that's eating up your time.

A few pages back you made a wholesale rejection of Christian scripture. That is fine, but you cannot reject scripture and call yourself an adherent to that scripture. That would be me claiming to be a Taoist while rejecting the Tao Te Ching. You tend to preface a lot of your arguments with the fact that you are a Christian, but this isn't necessarily so. As such, this distinction is very important for the purpose of having intellectually honest discussions.

Intellectual honesty is the central tenet of SubSim.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Intellectual honesty is the central tenet of SubSim.

OK, here the honest truth about my religion, so that this thread focuses once more on corruption in the Catholic church, and less about my religion (which has been very flattering)

I'm a person who regards myself as Christian, supports Gay rights, wants the church to hold less power in determining laws, and just wants everyone to get along*





*Yes, I have hope that everyone will get along. You can tell I have very little knowledge of the world.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

OK, here the honest truth about my religion, so that this thread focuses once more on corruption in the Catholic church, and less about my religion (which has been very flattering)

I'm a person who regards myself as Christian, supports Gay rights, wants the church to hold less power in determining laws, and just wants everyone to get along*





*Yes, I have hope that everyone will get along. You can tell I have very little knowledge of the world.

You're missing the point. You use your version of spirituality in your aguments all the time. I am just telling you that if you are going to do that, you will be called out on it. You are young, and yes, you have very little knowedge of the world. That can be a very hard thing for someone your age, and you need to be prepared for when that happens on the boards; and it will. What is important is that you take something away from it, as I have not been arguing this point for my sake, but for your's.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

You do realise that 70% of 'Christians' in my country actually reject those homophobic teachings as well, right? And I do have the right of self determination as well.

And I suppose you realize that an untold number of people who would classify themselves as "Christian" don't follow any tenants of Christ's teachings. They may go to church, but many of them don't. They don't really follow Jesus at all, yet if you scratch them they'll get their backs up and actually become angry that anyone would question their "faith". This is not to point a finger at anyone here, or anywhere else; it's only to point out that large numbers of people who would call themselves "Christian" are nothing of the kind.

And how many people who consider themselves good Christians actually follow this commandment from Jesus himself: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal."

Or this one: "Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me"."

You see, you can regard yourself as anything you want. But if you truly want to be a follower, you have to ask yourself the question of how does God regard you?

[HundertzehnGustav]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And I suppose you realize that an untold number of people who would classify themselves as "Christian" don't follow any tenants of Christ's teachings. They may go to church, but many of them don't. They don't really follow Jesus at all, yet if you scratch them they'll get their backs up and actually become angry that anyone would question their "faith". This is not to point a finger at anyone here, or anywhere else; it's only to point out that large numbers of people who would call themselves "Christian" are nothing of the kind.

And how many people who consider themselves good Christians actually follow this commandment from Jesus himself: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal."

Or this one: "Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me"."

You see, you can regard yourself as anything you want. But if you truly want to be a follower, you have to ask yourself the question of how does God regard you?

are those words and comma... thse recommendations not the deed of humans? Is this not an old tale? just a story so old and so twisted and so translated that is has no accuracy any more?
Censored, hashed up by the Hierarchy, interpreted time and again?

and if yes, are these texts that make up the bible of any good use at all - should we care about how god sees us?

Should we forgive because it is told to us, or should forgiveness come from a spontaneous source of will?
Same with our image to god: if we have a habit of checking oour doings in relation to what we are instruc... animated to do, is that still the right path?

If God knows, as i suspect he does, he knows when i forgive because of my own motivation to do so, and when i forgive because the rules say so in the hope of stacking up riches in heaven.
because even stacking up riches in heaven is stacking up riches. faking forgiveness in order to recieve...?
HMMMM fishy to me!

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

But isn't that also what the Catholic Church is doing? They've constructed the image of a God who critically punishes Homosexuality, and wants to stop abortions and voluntary euthanasia. The last 2 are terrible, terrible things, but in some cases are the best thing to do.

Yes, and most of us agree, or else this thread wouldn't be here. My only disagreement with you, and apparently Tak's, is in picking and choosing your faith and still calling yourself a Christian.

And I don't see how I'm straying from either of those 2nd commandments. I'm only worshipping the God that is referred to in Christian texts, and I'm not carving images of him.

I don't know what you actually believe, because I don't know you, but it seems that what you are doing here is worshipping your concept of the God of the Bible, but only as far as you feel like. If you disagree with a text you reject it, which is fine, but at what point have you actually stopped believing in God as the texts teach and started believing in one of your own creation? Picking and choosing is a dangerous game, as Thomas Jefferson found out when he made his own New Testament.

Steve, you have a unique talent. You can be absolutely polite to someone while destroying their argument. No wonder you were made a moderator!

Whatever 'talent' I have is based on a lifetime of being wrong. I've finally reached a point at which I don't trust anything that isn't fact. Fact is something that can actually be shown as being fact, something that can be proven. The truth is that I've been wrong (and apologized for it) so many times on these forums that I've long since lost count.

As for being a moderator, that was something different entirely. And I've been wrong there more than once as well.