Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

Apparently a good deal of the Israelis decided they'd celebrate the attack in front of the Turkish embassy in Tel Aviv.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a3_1275348204

Gee uhh why the Turkish Embassy?

[VonHesse]

@heartc

317 now

And what does that mean? Merely that this is an engaging topic on which many people have an opinion that they wish to express. Have you read all the posts? I have, and if you had, you would've seen that there are a broad and fairly evenly spread set of independant views expressed here.

For the most part, the discussion has been a level-headed and fair debate of the the incident and the facts surrounding it. Frankly, given the sensitive nature of the underlying Palestinian/Israeli divide, I have been proud if the mature manner in which most Subsim members have conducted themselves. This is an open discussion, and I for one, am happy to have a chance to sample honest opinions and viewpoints from all parties - especially considering the global nature of the Subsim commuity.

Of course there is a small minority of posters who seem bent on inflamitory remarks, but at least one agitator will be found in any community, large or small, in which civilized poeple try to have a rational debate. The majority of us, however have conducted ourselves with restraint and fairness in the interests of an honest discussion.

Again, I for one am proad of the level of maturity displayed by the bulk of the Subsim members in this thread, and look forward to hearing more, and varied, opinions and viewpoints. A frank and earnest discussion is always a good thing.

Hey heartc you deleted your comment about people not having their lives impacted all around the world.
I take it you realised just about every adult in the western world and just about every industry globally has been massively impacted by events over there.

Look at it: India and Pakistan are conducting themselves as sworn enemies and they both are even in possession of nuclear weapons.

So what? how doe sthat afferct other countries on the same scale.

Because there are no Jews to be found in it.

Thats just a lame attempt at avoiding the issues, events in the middle east impact on the world regardless of the religion or ethnicity of the people there.

[CaptainHaplo]

There comes a time in any armed conflict, when people make choices...

They can remain civilians, or participate in the conflict by using violence.

Those that chose violence become - under the rules of war, combatants, and as such are treated like combatants.

These "protestors" were heading into a conflict zone.
They repeatedly ignored warnings to avoid the zone.
When confronted, they chose to initiate violence on behalf of an enemy of the state of Israel - making them combatants, and thus valid and legal targets to be killed.

Their choices, their actions, their responsibility.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

no.

let me make it easier for you...

If the police came to your house - or better yet - lets say if the police pulled you over and suspected that your vehicle contained drugs and drug paraphernalia - what would your natural reaction be?

A. Speed off into a high speed pursuit

B. Cooperate fully - knowing the officer will see that your little baggies of cocaine are actually little baggies of sugar and let you go

C. Stab, hit, bite, kick the officers



dont put a spin on it... just answer the hypothetical question its simple even!

They need to send the Portland (or-gone) po-lice overthere to enforce this. They have shot and killed more people in the last year for resisting arrest. So when you get pulled over, naturally, you pull a knife.

And on a side note, are these the same kind of protesters they have in Iraq (also known as re-inforcements.) I say let the Germans enforce the Naval blockade as they have a pretty good resume on naval blockades.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

There comes a time in any armed conflict, when people make choices...

They can remain civilians, or participate in the conflict by using violence.

Those that chose violence become - under the rules of war, combatants, and as such are treated like combatants.

These "protestors" were heading into a conflict zone.
They repeatedly ignored warnings to avoid the zone.
When confronted, they chose to initiate violence on behalf of an enemy of the state of Israel - making them combatants, and thus valid and legal targets to be killed.

Their choices, their actions, their responsibility.

You should have seen the few hundred useful idiots protesting here. Maybe hamas needs to launch some rockets at portland, then lets see the pro-hamas protests.

I say we arm both sides, winner gets the region, everybody else STFU and go do something else.

I say we arm both sides, winner gets the region, everybody else STFU and go do something else.

Someone else famously took the let them fight for it approach many years ago, since then his country has poured billions of dollars into the mess and they are still no nearer to a sorting out a winner from the pile of losers in the region.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Hey heartc you deleted your comment about people not having their lives impacted all around the world.
I take it you realised just about every adult in the western world and just about every industry globally has been massively impacted by events over there.

Yes. But this impact is artificially magnified.
In reality, there should be no question on the issue itself. The fronts should be clear: You have a democracy in the midst of totalitarian regimes that are surpressing their own peoples and filling them with hatred nothing short of what Goebbels did, instead of educating them on things that could actually further their lifes. The course as of where the support should go, ought to be clear. There is no "Israeli" problem in the Middle East. There is a problem with Anti-Semitism. But that's not what people are worried about over here. They are worried about what Israel does or does not do.

So what? how doe sthat afferct other countries on the same scale.

Uhm. Like in *NUCLEAR WEAPONS*?

Thats just a lame attempt at avoiding the issues, events in the middle east impact on the world regardless of the religion or ethnicity of the people there.

No, that's the *****ng point I'm trying to make. But never mind. I know you will never agree with it. You were friendly in your first reply because you maybe remembered me as someone who sometimes called out Mr. "Knows it all" Skybird on his hilariously megalomanic tirades.

But other than that, I found that on most topics you are pretty far over there on the other side of the river from me.
No ill will though. It's just that I'm not surprised when no consensus comes out of this.

With regards.

[Zachstar]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

There comes a time in any armed conflict, when people make choices...

They can remain civilians, or participate in the conflict by using violence.

Those that chose violence become - under the rules of war, combatants, and as such are treated like combatants.

These "protestors" were heading into a conflict zone.
They repeatedly ignored warnings to avoid the zone.
When confronted, they chose to initiate violence on behalf of an enemy of the state of Israel - making them combatants, and thus valid and legal targets to be killed.

Their choices, their actions, their responsibility.

Repelling boarders does not make them valid targets. Especially in international waters. Also opening fire from the helos means they can claim defense.

Again fancy lines and labels isn't going to help Israel on this. They frakked up and are going to pay the political price for it. Gaza now is open through egypt which likely is much less inclined to inspect cargo going in and out. Israel looks like a bully AGAIN which is weakening their position and lessening chances of foreign assistance in case of a major attack. They are giving far too much political ammo to Hamas and other groups that are against their very existence.

Israel has egg on its face. Today it was forced to get rid off all it captured less face a serious international political crisis soon it will be forced to lift the blockade on Gaza. Many more today now hate their guts. They just cant keep doing this! It will sink them!

[Zachstar]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

You should have seen the few hundred useful idiots protesting here. Maybe hamas needs to launch some rockets at portland, then lets see the pro-hamas protests.

I say we arm both sides, winner gets the region, everybody else STFU and go do something else.

So thousands and thousands gets to die before a "Winner" gets to rule? Sickening....

[CaptainHaplo]

Heartc - don't let it get to you.

The idea that every adult in the western world is somehow "massively affected" by this incident is so totally ludicrous on its face its hilarious. Sometimes you just have to recognize when people are choosing to be difficult.

Zachstar - you might want to reread the relevant law - thank TLAM for posting it....

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1408116&postcount=142


"Repelling Boarders" only works if the boarders do not have a legal right to board you. In this case - the IDF did in fact, under the law governing such actions - have the right to board. The fact you seem to be dismissing - and many others do as well - is that this vessel communicated its intent to violate the legal blockade, refused a peaceful solution (diversion to a specified port with the assurance that all non-prohibited aid would be allowed through to Gaza) and initiated lethal action - which then was responded to in kind.

As for "opening fire" from the helo's - every video out there shows this claim to be false. 3 very simple reasons. Had the IDF been firing live rounds - the deck video would show alot of dead people, not a lot of "protesters" waiting to ambush the first guy down the rope. Second - if your taking lethal fire from above, your not going to stand around waiting to catch a slug - especially "helpless civilian protesters" like these people are now claiming to be. Thirdly, had the IDF been firing "for effect" - they would have cleared the decks before the first guy hit the line. So every fact shows that this was a premeditated, orchestrated PR bait trap laid with the INTENT to discredit Israel, even when the IDF followed the law and common sense.

As for those who claim the IDF was just looking to kill people - sorry - when the IDF wants to go kill people - they tend to do a much better job.... Entebbe is a good example....

[August]

Originally Posted by Zachstar

So thousands and thousands gets to die before a "Winner" gets to rule? Sickening....

Any more sickening than killing thousands and thousands without end?

[Zachstar]

So where is the huge cache of weapons they have appeared on the captured craft to make the boarding legal or the weapons of mass destruction? Simple crops of law dont work here and neither does the labels or the usual bits.

Multiple witnesses reported gunfire from the helos. I suspect it was high velocity paintball rounds but they opened fire nonetheless Im surprised they diddn't end up killing some of the boarders in that situation.

And of course it was PR trap. Im again surprised there was not even more uplinks showing every part of the upper decks that was their plan to keep Israel from attacking. And it worked to the discredit of Israel. Israel is now the "Bully" the attacker the blocker of aid to children. And now its enemies have more PR ammo than they could have imagined. Gaza is now opened through egypt and the blockade will have to be lifted. Clinton is trying to "Calm down" world leaders on the phone but the damage is done. Israel yet AGAIN has egg on its face.

[Zachstar]

Originally Posted by August

Any more sickening than killing thousands and thousands without end?

Oil is what is keeping it going. If we got off our lazy buts and found an alternative it would remove a great deal of funds from those who do kill the thousands.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Zachstar

Oil is what is keeping it going. If we got off our lazy buts and found an alternative it would remove a great deal of funds from those who do kill the thousands.

While i agree with you 100% i do have to say...

Wind energy is not the answer.

Look at Abilene, Texas Wind turbines EVERYWHERE and 90% of the time only a hand full of them are turning. Its unsightly, and they dont produce nearly as much power as advertised.

Hydrogen is probably not the answer.

too volatile?

Nuclear power is not the answer for obvious reasons.

i mean we could list hundreds of viable options and write a friggin manuscript filled with things wrong with each one of them

I think that you have to move toward cars like the Aptera - the SOB can go a couple of hundred miles at highway speeds before it requires a recharge.

for me... thats about 4 days of work related commuting.

the thing about progress Zach - is that it is generally slower than frozen molasses flowing up a hill.

and our RETARD government could have started a NEW ERA if they had only injected that stimulus money into a car company like Aptera instead of blowing it on GM