Teh Nazis!

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

It's true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they did nothing to stop the Nazis either.

I would be very interested in the citation that supports this.

Originally Posted by Platapus

The Frau came to this country in the late 1980's. When she was in school in Germany during the 1960's, WWII was not taught in her history classes. German history stopped after WWI. Current history was picked up in the 1950s but that was taught in her civics classes.

There was no denial or covering up of the Nazi history, it just was not discussed. In many ways this mimics the American school systems concerning the treatment of Indian Tribes in the 19th and 20th centuries. It is kinda glossed over (at least it was in the 60's when I was a punk).

So I imagine every country/culture has its history they are not proud of, and often this history is not taught in schools. As a history nut, I disagree with this concept. To me history is history -- the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Knowing the darker aspects of American history does not make me like America less. America has done a lot of bad things, a lot of good things, and a lot of mediocre things. That's all part of our history. To conceal any part is doing a disservice to our children.

To me, it is important to recognize that my country is imperfect. Knowing this, helps me understand the imperfections of other countries/cultures.

There are many who would disagree with me on this.

In principle, agreed. But I can only talk for myself here, but when I was in school from 1986 to 1997, this Nazis were ontop in some class nearly every single year, be it history, german or politics class. To a degree it overshadowed everything else.

Then again this was gradually implemented only after the 68 revolts.

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

Yeah, i'd hate to break it to you folks, but Germany as a country was the whole reason the Nazis came to power in the first place. They not only set them in power but openly aided the Holocaust and other atrocities. However, even the German people could admit they were wrong.

The statement, "not all Germans were nazis" is totally useless. It's true that not all Germans were Nazis, but they did nothing to stop the Nazis either. Even when it was within their means to do so. And don't act like the Nazis tricked Germany either, Hitler laid out everything he intended to do step-by-step in Mein Kampf. The ultimate reality is Germany wanted to one-up the allies for the embarrasment of World War 1 and they were fully willing to embrace a violently nationalist and expansionist regime that never once hid its genocidal intentions.

Do you get what i'm saying here? I'm saying Germany let the Nazis take over just because of a 20 year old grudge.

So I don't understand what compels people to claim the Nazis and Germans were so separate from one another. Even when the German people themselves admitted they were horribly wrong. What are you defending here? People who say "we didn't know" are universally looked down upon in the country too. German citizens who claim that the crimes of the holocaust were unknown are tatamount to holocaust denial. What about the White Rose movement, Rossenstrasse protests, and Oskar Schindler? Fear of Nazi reprisal didn't stop them. Traudl Junge actually addmitted on her death bed that she spent her entire life making excuses for herself and Germany over what the Nazis did.

The Wehrmacht is far from blameless in war crimes. They may have contributed more to the death of western slavic peoples than any other cause in history. Even guys like Guderian could admit the Wehrmacht played the Nazi game.

So again, what are you defending?

Details aside, in general I wholeheartly agree. But that is not the point, really.
You can't make ppl change their ways by constantly reminding them of their sins. Especially when 64 years after that a younger generation is still held accountable for these crimes, while wherever they look the Nazis are praised as the greatest soldiers of all time. Something goes seriously wrong there.

[FIREWALL]

I have no proof but a gut feeling that your average German in those days we're just as scared S*** LESS as anyone else of AH and his henchmen.

[CaptHawkeye]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I would be very interested in the citation that supports this.

Yeah, I have to prove the Nazis took power in the first place and had wide scale public support.

[CaptHawkeye]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

I have no proof but a gut feeling that your average German in those days we're just as scared S*** LESS as anyone else of AH and his henchmen.

Which never would have happened in the first place had they not voted him into power.

[August]

I think Germany's problem is that the nazi era is still too recent. Although it seems like a long time to us in the modern age, 64 years is nothing when it comes to making people stop thinking of such earth shaking events as the holocaust and WW2. Heck we even still have a living memory of those times.

For example it's taken 700 years for people to stop thinking of Italians as Romans and even now there are those who will attempt to draw such comparisons when it suits them.

I expect it will be the same unless Germany becomes better known for something else. But I think if your young people decide to, as you put it, "live up to the reputation" it will only serve to make the impression even more long lasting.

Public support was there, maybe not at a constant high and certainly not to the degree foreign folks often make it out to be, but in general it was. Enough to not threaten Nazi rule anyways.

[CaptHawkeye]

Nobody is asking Germany to carry it's past with it forever. What i'm saying is that you shouldn't feel bad for it either.

[August]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Public support was there, maybe not at a constant high and certainly not to the degree foreign folks often make it out to be, but in general it was. Enough to not threaten Nazi rule anyways.

People speak of that support with the advantage of hindsight. They don't understand that things are never that clear before the fact.

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

Which never would have happened in the first place had they not voted him into power.

That they didn't. The NsDAP was losing votes big time at the last free election in Germany. Within the coalition of other nationalistic parties, Hitler threatend to leave that if they didn't make him Chancellor. The partyleaders of that coalition talked to Hindenburg into making Hitler Chancellor, despite all the reservations to that, with the promise to "push him into the corner until he squeals". The rest is history.

[Jimbuna]

I doubt there is a country in Europe that doesn't have a section of it's population or a political movement that purports to support nazi tendancies.

The key is how the rest of society manage the situation, stop them spreading the vile and evil hatred they spew and keep them in check.

[Lurchi]

Originally Posted by CaptHawkeye

Which never would have happened in the first place had they not voted him into power.

Hitler was never voted into power by the majority of german people - this is a myth constructed for obvious reasons by war propaganda.

Although the Nazis were the strongest party their star was already sinking as they lost votes during the last free election (despite massive terror and intimidation by the SA against other parties). The problem was that resistance was fragmented into various factions.

Hitler was "appointed" Chancellor by monarchist President Hindenburg who believed that germans need a "strong hand" like the old Kaiser. For Hitler this was his last and only chance as he was obviously unable to win through regular elections before.

When Hitler finally grabbed ultimate power no german voter was asked anymore - and after that, demonstrating against a million men army of thugs like the SA with a good chance of ending in a torture cellar was not smartest thing to to by a man of woman with a family at home ...

[CaptHawkeye]

Not voting him into directly. Why were the Nazis getting so many seats in the Reichstag in the first place? Why did their party balloon in size during the early 30s? Even if they were losing popularity just before Hitler became chancellor, they had to *be* popular in the first place.

You're right in that plenty of people in Germany had considered the Nazis to be violent lunatics from Day 1. The problem is plenty MORE thought they were national icons. Just look at the obscene popularity Hitler gained after Mein Kampf, the Nuremburg Rallies, etc. Crowds as far as the eye can see.

Of course, even that's still barely an excuse. White Rose and Rossenstrasse all occured during the 40s, the height of Nazi power. They didn't let the Nazi bogeymen scare them.

[Frame57]

If I could have the chance to sit down and have a beer with Karl Donitz, I would...