?Normal Maps Sub Skins?

[rcjonessnp175]

Just wondering if we can get good normal maps ie the ones on the ships, at certain angles and light the normal maps r quite detailed and has a really cool textured look to them. I think everybodys seen this, well my question is why dont the subs have this, especially since the Release of ROW most time now is spend ooogling at the beauty of this game. Thiers got to be a way to make the subs have the awesome normal maps, what i mean by that is the super textured looks like alot of the newer first person shooters that have depth and looks like the surface is not flat but hahaha Textured.
SOrry if this has been asked before, just something that i think this awesome mod community could handle, oh and Foofighters ur skins rock, but if we had the normal maps the ships did, that be even awesomer hahaha.

Jonesy yup another op cancelled here in Iraqistan, hearts and minds stuff is gay.

[FooFighters]

Originally Posted by rcjonessnp175

Just wondering if we can get good normal maps ie the ones on the ships, at certain angles and light the normal maps r quite detailed and has a really cool textured look to them. I think everybodys seen this, well my question is why dont the subs have this, especially since the Release of ROW most time now is spend ooogling at the beauty of this game. Thiers got to be a way to make the subs have the awesome normal maps, what i mean by that is the super textured looks like alot of the newer first person shooters that have depth and looks like the surface is not flat but hahaha Textured.
SOrry if this has been asked before, just something that i think this awesome mod community could handle, oh and Foofighters ur skins rock, but if we had the normal maps the ships did, that be even awesomer hahaha.

Jonesy yup another op cancelled here in Iraqistan, hearts and minds stuff is gay.

It's still pretty early in the morning.. but I do not no what you mean with this ?

[rcjonessnp175]

k well in the options menu, graphics, thiers an option for ship normal maps, but not for the subs. if u look at a ship at sunrise or at dawn, ull see what im talking about. I dont have the technical terms in my vocab, but basicly, the sun light hits the hull of the ships and u can see the normal maps. I guess its hard to explain, but the skin is rough and shiny depending on the camera angle. Next time im in game ill try and take a screenie.


Jonesy

[rodan54]

I believe rcjonessnp175 is refering to the N01.dds texture files, which the subs are indeed lacking. And I fully agree, they could definetely serve to up the level of sub detailing to something more along the lines of the following.

[kapitan_zur_see]

Originally Posted by rcjonessnp175

Just wondering if we can get good normal maps ie the ones on the ships,

I already thought about that and did some research.
On the first hand, i believe normal maps were not added because there's not much detail you could need to add using normal maps on the subs. Try to think about what detail you would add if you were to make such a texture, you'll see that for a sub, there's not much need of it (too much flat, no doors, no small details like windows, ropes, buoys etc.) or such details being already 3d modelled.

However i started to get interesting because i thought there could be minor improvements, such as every limber holes outline.

The problem is, we couldn't at present fully export 3d model inside, say, 3dsmax and import them back with new textures UVW coordinate and reference which should pretty much be the way. Pack3d did that for SH3 and stills work when exporting certain models from SH4 (i use it for sub hull for working on my mod bubbles), but it don't know how to handle certain features that are SH4 only and thus textures don't work when you import a model back.

I believe there might be a way to manually add a texture node to a model using skwas S3D + hex editing. UVW coordinates might be complicated to implement though
Not to mention, S3D seems to have problems reading textures nodes right in the dat files (no coordinates, no reference for the .dds files etc.)

[FooFighters]

Originally Posted by kapitan_zur_see

I already thought about that and did some research.
On the first hand, i believe normal maps were not added because there's not much detail you could need to add using normal maps on the subs. Try to think about what detail you would add if you were to make such a texture, you'll see that for a sub, there's not much need of it (too much flat, no doors, no small details like windows, ropes, buoys etc.) or such details being already 3d modelled.

However i started to get interesting because i thought there could be minor improvements, such as every limber holes outline.

The problem is, we couldn't at present fully export 3d model inside, say, 3dsmax and import them back with new textures UVW coordinate and reference which should pretty much be the way. Pack3d did that for SH3 and stills work when exporting certain models from SH4 (i use it for sub hull for working on my mod bubbles), but it don't know how to handle certain features that are SH4 only and thus textures don't work when you import a model back.

I believe there might be a way to manually add a texture node to a model using skwas S3D + hex editing. UVW coordinates might be complicated to implement though
Not to mention, S3D seems to have problems reading textures nodes right in the dat files (no coordinates, no reference for the .dds files etc.)

If something like this will happen, we should also try to make 2 textures.
One for left and one for right side of the sub.

Then we can add numbers etc..

[l3th4l]

did anybody try just adding a ...N01... texture to the folder? it's just a thought, but maybe there already is a normal map referenced inside the model but not found..

i'd try creating a grayscale heightmap on top of the regular texture (for alignment); then running the normalmap filter over it, flatten and save under the same name except replacing the "T" with an "N"...

if anybody already tried this then please forget i said anything

[kapitan_zur_see]

Originally Posted by l3th4l

did anybody try just adding a ...N01... texture to the folder? it's just a thought, but maybe there already is a normal map referenced inside the model but not found..

No, i already tried that doesn't work. And using S3D, i can't find where's the texture reference. I believe it doesn't quite read textures right in the dat files

[l3th4l]

look in "NSS_Porpoise.upc". you'll find the "NormalmapTextureName" parameter is NULL. Set it to "data/Submarine/NSS_Porpoise/NSS_Pclass_N01.tga" and the normalmaps appear if you've created them correctly and put them in the right place.

the are a few parts that are not covered by that normal map, but i imagine there is a place somewhere else where you can activate those.

[skwasjer]

Originally Posted by kapitan_zur_see

No, i already tried that doesn't work. And using S3D, i can't find where's the texture reference. I believe it doesn't quite read textures right in the dat files

S3D does read them right. Don't know why you assume this. Because you don't see a hardcoded path or embedded texture does not mean S3D is doing wrong. Besides, you can always ask in my S3D thread...

In SH4 pretty much all textures are external and their file/path is determined based on the label of the material (for ships etc. remove cfg#TXR_ and you've got the filename...). Second, the game uses a file search method where it first searches the directory where the .dat is located, then it will search the textures folder.

[edit] The sub textures are only for the hulls. To have a complete look, you'll also have to add normal maps for conning towers and other objects... You'll also want to add a height map (alpha channel Oxx texture)...

[l3th4l]

to add the conning towers you gotta look inside UPCData\UPCUnitsData and then the unitparts file you're interested in. look for the conning tower normal map overrides (idk where the parameter is first defined maybe skwasjer can point you in the right direction?). you also need to create those normal maps based on the textures found in textures/tnormal/tex of course.

Originally Posted by skwasjer

You'll also want to add a height map (alpha channel Oxx texture)...

what is that used for if we already have a normal map? And is the name "LightmapTexture" which those Oxx textures are called inside the upc files a leftover from sh3? I haven't seen a illuminated surface (or are they simply used for making shadows?) and I thought the Oxx textures were used for specularity?

[skwasjer]

Originally Posted by l3th4l

to add the conning towers you gotta look inside UPCData\UPCUnitsData and then the unitparts file you're interested in. look for the conning tower normal map overrides (idk where the parameter is first defined maybe skwasjer can point you in the right direction?). you also need to create those normal maps based on the textures found in textures/tnormal/tex of course.

what is that used for if we already have a normal map? And is the name "LightmapTexture" which those Oxx textures are called inside the upc files a leftover from sh3? I haven't seen a illuminated surface (or are they simply used for making shadows?) and I thought the Oxx textures were used for specularity?

A normal map is not the same as a height map. I can go ahead and explain everything but there's a many good resources out there. Below some from wikipedia.

Bump mapping in general: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_mapping
Height map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heightmap
Normal map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mapping

An interesting summary page with screenshots: http://www.modwiki.net/wiki/Texturing

The height map is stored in the alpha channel of the Oxx.
The normal map is stored in RGB of the Nxx.
The ambient occlusion/shadow map is stored in RGB of Oxx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_occlusion)

The 'LightmapTexture' is the ambient occlusion/shadow map. In a 3D editor you speak of ambient occlusion, but the baked texture that is used in the game is a 'lightmap'. SH3 only uses ambient occlusion for interiors iirc, not for exterior/ships/etc... It does NOT use bump/normal mapping...

[rcjonessnp175]

im a noob but from that pict this looks promising, so is this basically just a edit a config type file to activate this, or is thier much more to this puzzle? Either way goodjob tracking down what has been found

[l3th4l]

Originally Posted by rcjonessnp175

so is this basically just a edit a config type file to activate this, or is thier much more to this puzzle?

that and creating the texture itself of course

A normal map is not the same as a height map. I can go ahead and explain everything but there's a many good resources out there.

i'm aware of what each is. the heighmap usually is the basis from which a normal- or bump-map (after all normal maps are basically more detailed bumpmaps because all channels are used to store information) is calculated.

question is, what is that "heightmap" used for by sh4? sh4 doesn't support prallax or displacement mapping (where a heightmap of some kind would be required) and the bump-mapping is done via normalmap as far as i know. That's why i thought it's not a heightmap at all but used for another purpose like specularity for example.

as for the light-(or rather shadow-)map: did i understand correctly that it is used the put pre-calculated shadows on objects like a multliply layer in photoshop?

edit:
for anyone interested, i've made a normalmap for the porpoise class. if you're new to this you can use it as a guideline for creating new normalmaps :
http://files.filefront.com/NSS+Porpo.../fileinfo.html
this is just a demonstration - right now i'm not planning to do each and every sub and its parts. unless i change my mind, of course the png is there to see how the heightmap i created the normalmap from looked like before to give you a better idea.

[skwasjer]

Maybe you are right. I have not tested all texture types/channels using my model renderer yet. I have no 3D software and am a modeller nooby, so I can't test it in such software. My conclusion is only based on looking at some textures and testing them in a custom written renderer. Maybe it also has to do with a fallback effect (possibly based on a SH4 gfx setting), normal mapping can be expensive - performance wise - on older gpu's.

As far as the lightmap, yes, it's indeed blended over the diffuse map.