cultural warship question.... ?

[LCQ_SH]

Hi everyone...I was just wondering the following...why big warships (cruisers, BBs, flat tops...) didn't have sonar stations?

I mean, last patrol I was really happy because I just came up with a lonely cruiser near Rabaul..... almost midnight, calm seas and pretty dark. (Travellers Mod 2.6) so I got in position at all ahead flank..... almost 5000m away from it (don't know if in reality that could have been possible...taking into account that cruisers had radar systems )......and fire up my torps... an easy kill.

So I was thinking, why IJN didn't install sonar stations on big warships? Several times if have founded lonely warships and without an escort they would not possible know that I am there.....what's the catch in here? Anyone

Cheers

[TabbyHunter]

The engine sound is far too loud. They would not be able to hear anything.

Atleast that is waht I have always been told.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by LCQ_SH

Hi everyone...I was just wondering the following...why big warships (cruisers, BBs, flat tops...) didn't have sonar stations?

I mean, last patrol I was really happy because I just came up with a lonely cruiser near Rabaul.....

I'm not entirely sure that is the case. Some Light Cruisers may have had sound gear (and depth charges). In SHCE, I believe one class of IJN CL had these.

Beyond CL's, I don't think it would be very practical, though. Such ships almost always had proper escorts, and it would be safer for them to just turn away and signal the DD's, when confronting a sub.

[LCQ_SH]

Originally Posted by TabbyHunter

The engine sound is far too loud. They would not be able to hear anything.

Atleast that is waht I have always been told.

Well that is logic for passive sonar....but not for active.. don't you think?

[LCQ_SH]

Originally Posted by TorpX

I'm not entirely sure that is the case. Some Light Cruisers may have had sound gear (and depth charges). In SHCE, I believe one class of IJN CL had these.

Beyond CL's, I don't think it would be very practical, though. Such ships almost always had proper escorts, and it would be safer for them to just turn away and signal the DD's, when confronting a sub.

you think? You just have to clear the escort screen, and big ships won't have any idea of your possible location....

[Sniper297]

Main thing to remember is both sonar and electronics were new technology. WWI they wrapped a microphone in a rubber bag (no plastic bags, hadn't been invented yet) and lowered that into the water to listen, purpose designed hydrophones and transducers came later. Electronics used glass vacuum tubes because the transistor hadn't been invented yet, so heavy cruisers and battleships had mechanical fire control systems because vacuum tube electronics wouldn't have stood the shock. So a sonar set mounted in any of the bow compartments of a CA or BB would have all the tubes shattered the first time the guns fired.

(Watching some old Beatles films with my oldest granddaughter recently she remarked how "stiff" they seemed - but the microphones, electric guitars, and amplifiers of the early 1960s wouldn't have survived modern day wild dancing and twerking for even a few seconds.)

Other item, if you only have a limited number of sonar sets, you install them where they will do the most good - in a destroyer, a ship that's named for its purpose, to destroy submarines. Later in the war the Japanese did equip some merchant ships and light cruisers with hydrophones and depth charge throwers, but strictly as defensive measures. The best kind of ship to kill a sub is one designed for the purpose, a cruiser trying to chase down and depth charge a sub would be like watching an elephant try to waltz.

[TabbyHunter]

Originally Posted by LCQ_SH

Well that is logic for passive sonar....but not for active.. don't you think?

Granted a movie is a movie but;

The Hunt for Red October

"They're pinging away and moving at close to 30 knots. They could run over my daughters stereo and not hear it."

A battleship is rather loud. Even with active pinging, your sonar man won't hear the returning ping over the engines...unless you want to turn them off and render yourself highly vulnerable to a potential submarine....or air attack. They are not exactly agile....or even fast to "turn on."

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by LCQ_SH

So I was thinking, why IJN didn't install sonar stations on big warships? Several times if have founded lonely warships and without an escort they would not possible know that I am there.....what's the catch in here?

Strange as it may seem, the Japanese carriers Shokaku and Zuikaku both had sonar equipment installed during their construction. Two types were installed, the Type 91 Mod Passive and the Type 97 hydrophones. However, I can't find any evidence that they were every used to detect or hunt a submarine.

That being said it comes down to an issue of speed. Sonar was generally ineffective at speeds over about 10 knots, requiring "sprint and drift" tactics in which the antisubmarine warship had to periodically slow almost to a stop to make best use of its sonar. A battleship, carrier, or cruiser creeping along at such slow speeds might be able to pick up a submarine, but by extension it's making itself the most beautiful target in the world. At those speeds and given their large size and draft, even the greenest sub skipper could quickly make the necessary torpedo solution and slam a couple of fish into it. An escort like a destroyer on the other hand could rely on it's shallow draft, and ability to accelerate quickly to get out of danger. For heavy warships the most effective ASW weapon they possessed, was an average speed of 20 to 30 knots. Historically, a sub had to be lucky and already in position ahead to even get a crack at them.

The reason that destroyers, destroyer escorts, frigates, corvettes and sub chasers made such ideal ASW craft was their large numbers, enabling them to work in groups. Shallow draft, maneuverability and high speed, making them difficult to hit, and expendability, they were relatively cheap and easy to produce compared to the heavier types.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by LCQ_SH

(don't know if in reality that could have been possible...taking into account that cruisers had radar systems )

Japanese cruisers didn't really start getting fitted with radar before mid-1943 depending on availability when they put into port in Japan for routine repairs. Even then, an air search radar system usually got installed before a surface radar did.

[LCQ_SH]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

That being said it comes down to an issue of speed. Sonar was generally ineffective at speeds over about 10 knots, requiring "sprint and drift" tactics in which the antisubmarine warship had to periodically slow almost to a stop to make best use of its sonar........An escort like a destroyer on the other hand could rely on it's shallow draft, and ability to accelerate quickly to get out of danger. For heavy warships the most effective ASW weapon they possessed, was an average speed of 20 to 30 knots. Historically, a sub had to be lucky and already in position ahead to even get a crack at them.

I perfectly agree with you and makses sense but it still makes me think "then why the fast resupplying IJN DDs taskforce going at 30kt in between Solomon Islands could have detected me with no visual contact??

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by LCQ_SH

I perfectly agree with you and makses sense but it still makes me think "then why the fast resupplying IJN DDs taskforce going at 30kt in between Solomon Islands could have detected me with no visual contact??

They shouldn't. The water turbulence at that speed would pretty much render both passive and active sonar near useless.

But it is just a game, and a lot depends on which mod you are using. If it's Trigger Maru Overhauled, the Japanese destroyers could hear you running silent on the dark side of the moon. A bit of an exaggeration but that's why I don't use TMO anymore.

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by TorpX

I'm not entirely sure that is the case. Some Light Cruisers may have had sound gear (and depth charges). In SHCE, I believe one class of IJN CL had these.

Beyond CL's, I don't think it would be very practical, though. Such ships almost always had proper escorts, and it would be safer for them to just turn away and signal the DD's, when confronting a sub.

You're right; the American "Atlanta" class of light cruisers were designed to provide antisubmarine defence and had some depth charges. In practice they were a failure, and spent the war in the traditional AA and anti surface ship roles.

[TorpX]

I presumed the notion of CL's having sonar (or depth charges), was so that they could provide an inner defense for the capitol ships they were escorting. That is, enough charges for one or two runs, just in case.

you think? You just have to clear the escort screen, and big ships won't have any idea of your possible location....

Aside from the points already stated, BB's, CV's, and CA's having sound gear and listening would do them little good. If a sub is quiet enough for you to get through the better skilled escorts, the odds are the big ships wouldn't hear it anyway. They would be pointing their hydrophones out and constantly picking up the noise of their own escorts, and the other capitol ships.

[neilbyrne]

In the modern day, USS AMERICA (CV-66) was built with an SQS-23 sonar, the only CV to be so equipped that I know of. Other than her aircraft, she had no ASW weapons to go with it.

In the Med which can have some very shallow layer depths, she on occasion could out range her escorts in detections because her sonar was mounted so much deeper, 39ft, than theirs and so in a shallow layer condition her sonar could get underneath where the tin cans' couldn't.

[Sniper297]

Oh you're gonna bring THAT up again. I was on AMERICA in 81, they removed the sonar in 82, I swear I had nothing to do with it. Pure coincidence.

IIRC several KITTY HAWK class carriers had the dome but the AMERICA was the only one to actually have the sonar installed, the others were empty.



Dunno which one that is, but a good pic of the dome in drydock. I think the ESSEX class were equipped with sonar for the CVS role, but the reason was so they could hear and dodge torpedoes easier, rather than try to replace a destroyer. Makes sense since postwar electric fish meant you couldn't count on lookouts seeing the wakes.