cultural warship question.... ?

TorpX · 03-27-14, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LCQ_SH

Hi everyone...I was just wondering the following...why big warships (cruisers, BBs, flat tops...) didn't have sonar stations?

I mean, last patrol I was really happy because I just came up with a lonely cruiser near Rabaul.....

I'm not entirely sure that is the case. Some Light Cruisers may have had sound gear (and depth charges). In SHCE, I believe one class of IJN CL had these.

Beyond CL's, I don't think it would be very practical, though. Such ships almost always had proper escorts, and it would be safer for them to just turn away and signal the DD's, when confronting a sub.

LCQ_SH · 03-27-14, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorpX

I'm not entirely sure that is the case. Some Light Cruisers may have had sound gear (and depth charges). In SHCE, I believe one class of IJN CL had these.

Beyond CL's, I don't think it would be very practical, though. Such ships almost always had proper escorts, and it would be safer for them to just turn away and signal the DD's, when confronting a sub.

you think? You just have to clear the escort screen, and big ships won't have any idea of your possible location....

Sniper297 · 03-27-14, 11:29 PM

Main thing to remember is both sonar and electronics were new technology. WWI they wrapped a microphone in a rubber bag (no plastic bags, hadn't been invented yet) and lowered that into the water to listen, purpose designed hydrophones and transducers came later. Electronics used glass vacuum tubes because the transistor hadn't been invented yet, so heavy cruisers and battleships had mechanical fire control systems because vacuum tube electronics wouldn't have stood the shock. So a sonar set mounted in any of the bow compartments of a CA or BB would have all the tubes shattered the first time the guns fired.

(Watching some old Beatles films with my oldest granddaughter recently she remarked how "stiff" they seemed - but the microphones, electric guitars, and amplifiers of the early 1960s wouldn't have survived modern day wild dancing and twerking for even a few seconds.)

Other item, if you only have a limited number of sonar sets, you install them where they will do the most good - in a destroyer, a ship that's named for its purpose, to destroy submarines. Later in the war the Japanese did equip some merchant ships and light cruisers with hydrophones and depth charge throwers, but strictly as defensive measures. The best kind of ship to kill a sub is one designed for the purpose, a cruiser trying to chase down and depth charge a sub would be like watching an elephant try to waltz.

iambecomelife · 03-28-14, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorpX

I'm not entirely sure that is the case. Some Light Cruisers may have had sound gear (and depth charges). In SHCE, I believe one class of IJN CL had these.

Beyond CL's, I don't think it would be very practical, though. Such ships almost always had proper escorts, and it would be safer for them to just turn away and signal the DD's, when confronting a sub.

You're right; the American "Atlanta" class of light cruisers were designed to provide antisubmarine defence and had some depth charges. In practice they were a failure, and spent the war in the traditional AA and anti surface ship roles.

TorpX · 03-29-14, 12:39 AM

I presumed the notion of CL's having sonar (or depth charges), was so that they could provide an inner defense for the capitol ships they were escorting. That is, enough charges for one or two runs, just in case.

Quote:

you think? You just have to clear the escort screen, and big ships won't have any idea of your possible location....

Aside from the points already stated, BB's, CV's, and CA's having sound gear and listening would do them little good. If a sub is quiet enough for you to get through the better skilled escorts, the odds are the big ships wouldn't hear it anyway. They would be pointing their hydrophones out and constantly picking up the noise of their own escorts, and the other capitol ships.

neilbyrne · 03-29-14, 04:33 PM

In the modern day, USS AMERICA (CV-66) was built with an SQS-23 sonar, the only CV to be so equipped that I know of. Other than her aircraft, she had no ASW weapons to go with it.

In the Med which can have some very shallow layer depths, she on occasion could out range her escorts in detections because her sonar was mounted so much deeper, 39ft, than theirs and so in a shallow layer condition her sonar could get underneath where the tin cans' couldn't.

Sniper297 · 03-29-14, 07:33 PM

Oh you're gonna bring THAT up again.

I was on AMERICA in 81, they removed the sonar in 82, I swear I had nothing to do with it. Pure coincidence.

IIRC several KITTY HAWK class carriers had the dome but the AMERICA was the only one to actually have the sonar installed, the others were empty.

Dunno which one that is, but a good pic of the dome in drydock. I think the ESSEX class were equipped with sonar for the CVS role, but the reason was so they could hear and dodge torpedoes easier, rather than try to replace a destroyer. Makes sense since postwar electric fish meant you couldn't count on lookouts seeing the wakes.

03-29-14, 04:33 PM	#6
neilbyrne Torpedoman Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 118 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	In the modern day, USS AMERICA (CV-66) was built with an SQS-23 sonar, the only CV to be so equipped that I know of. Other than her aircraft, she had no ASW weapons to go with it. In the Med which can have some very shallow layer depths, she on occasion could out range her escorts in detections because her sonar was mounted so much deeper, 39ft, than theirs and so in a shallow layer condition her sonar could get underneath where the tin cans' couldn't. __________________ Cordially, Neil CAPT USN (Ret.)

03-27-14, 11:29 PM	#3
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Main thing to remember is both sonar and electronics were new technology. WWI they wrapped a microphone in a rubber bag (no plastic bags, hadn't been invented yet) and lowered that into the water to listen, purpose designed hydrophones and transducers came later. Electronics used glass vacuum tubes because the transistor hadn't been invented yet, so heavy cruisers and battleships had mechanical fire control systems because vacuum tube electronics wouldn't have stood the shock. So a sonar set mounted in any of the bow compartments of a CA or BB would have all the tubes shattered the first time the guns fired. (Watching some old Beatles films with my oldest granddaughter recently she remarked how "stiff" they seemed - but the microphones, electric guitars, and amplifiers of the early 1960s wouldn't have survived modern day wild dancing and twerking for even a few seconds.) Other item, if you only have a limited number of sonar sets, you install them where they will do the most good - in a destroyer, a ship that's named for its purpose, to destroy submarines. Later in the war the Japanese did equip some merchant ships and light cruisers with hydrophones and depth charge throwers, but strictly as defensive measures. The best kind of ship to kill a sub is one designed for the purpose, a cruiser trying to chase down and depth charge a sub would be like watching an elephant try to waltz.

03-29-14, 07:33 PM	#7
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Oh you're gonna bring THAT up again. I was on AMERICA in 81, they removed the sonar in 82, I swear I had nothing to do with it. Pure coincidence. IIRC several KITTY HAWK class carriers had the dome but the AMERICA was the only one to actually have the sonar installed, the others were empty. Dunno which one that is, but a good pic of the dome in drydock. I think the ESSEX class were equipped with sonar for the CVS role, but the reason was so they could hear and dodge torpedoes easier, rather than try to replace a destroyer. Makes sense since postwar electric fish meant you couldn't count on lookouts seeing the wakes.